Toros en su ‘ghetto’ at Bloc de anillas

Toros en su ‘ghetto’

La nueva ley para la protecci�n de los animales de la Junta de Andaluc�a prev� una serie de sanciones para aquellos que maltraten tanto a los animales dom�sticos como de otro tipo. Eso s�, los toros vuelven a quedar fuera, puesto que los legisladores no los consideran ni animales acu�ticos ni de compa��a.
En el caso de los toros, la hipocres�a alcanza l�mites impresentables tanto por parte de la administraci�n como de los aficionados y de los que viven del negocio. Las razones para mantener en una sociedad supuestamente avanzada como la espa�ola una aut�ntica tortura p�blica a un animal no se sostienen. �Tradici�n? Las tradiciones pueden atentar contra la �tica, si la consideramos universal, como en este caso (y todos conocemos numerosos ejemplos de tradiciones brutales). �Econom�a? Est� claro de que se trata de un negocio lucrativo para los ganaderos, pero un plan de reconversi�n del sector derivar�a con sencillez a los trabajadores de la tauromaquia hacia otras labores. �Protecci�n de una raza �nica que si no se extinguir�a? Esta teor�a de la salvaci�n del toro de lidia gracias a las corridas resulta ya delirante. Para ello basta una reserva natural con un n�mero representativo de ejemplares de la especie. �Arte? Recordemos que cuando Thomas de Quincey escribi� �Del asesinato considerado como una de las bellas artes� estaba haciendo humor negro. En el mundo del toro la iron�a se ha transformado en afirmaci�n literal. Es cierto que el ritual torero y el propio desarrollo de la corrida puede producir belleza, pero eso no quiere decir arte. Esa belleza est� provocada por la conmoci�n generada por el �continente�, pero el �contenido� es un atentado contra la moral, y el arte, como hecho consustancial al ser humano, no puede ser ajeno a la moral. Una de las cosas m�s bellas y sublimes que he visto en mi vida fue un incendio cerca de Cannes, luego habr� que subvencionar a los mejores pir�manos…
En ese sentido, recordemos que muchas plazas de toros, festejos o escuelas taurinas est�n pagadas con los impuestos de todos nosotros, a pesar de que el 87,4% de los espa�oles son contrarios a que se haga sufrir a los animales en espect�culos, el 82% nunca ha asistido a una corrida, y el 92% piensa que el maltrato animal debe estar penalizado por ley (Intergallup, 1991).
En el caso de los toros resulta tambi�n alarmante el n�mero de personas que miran para otro lado o toleran las corridas, en suma, que respetan el hecho de que en un acto p�blico se destroce a un animal de manera sistem�tica, sin olvidar que los j�venes pueden acceder a la plaza y que la est�pidamente llamada �fiesta nacional� se retransmite en muchas ocasiones por televisi�n en la franja horaria infantil.
Toda esta cultura de la muerte s�lo se justifica por la falta de respeto general a la vida de los animales. El caso de los toros es, simplemente, una de sus consecuencias m�s llamativas, pero todo empieza por una educaci�n en la que los animales no son diferentes, sino inferiores. Lejos de las consignas budistas de moda o del ecologismo de fin de semana, hemos de aceptar a la vida como un valor universal, y a los derechos de los animales como una l�gica extensi�n de los humanos. En rigor, el problema es de �ndole filos�fica. Se trata simplemente de establecer docenas de �morales� o solamente una, de car�cter global.

Comments

Letroncio wrote:

Plas, plas, plas, plas, plas, plas.

Sin olvidar que el «continente» contiene (valga la redundancia) algunos de los sectores m�s pacatos, ultraconservadores y vergonzantes de este pa�s, pero eso es otro tema.

�D�nde est� la belleza?

Pero por otra parte creo que a la «fiesta nacional», le quedan los a�os contados, cada vez es menor el sector de la poblaci�n interesada y la juventud en su mayor�a pasa de este «arte».

«Si las corridas son cultura, el canibalismo es gastronom�a»

Saludos.

Posted 12 Dic 2003 at 1:29 pm ¶
Garganta Profunda wrote:

La tortura no es arte ni cultura.

Y otro dia hablaremos del tema «La Caza»: Cuando cuatro personajillos sienten la pulsion androg�nica neandertal, se visten de verde camuflaje, cogen sus winchesters y se lanzan al monte a dar por culo a la fauna y al personal.

Posted 12 Dic 2003 at 2:21 pm ¶
san dimas wrote:

Para ir a cazar, ya no nos vestimos de verde camuflaje. Estamos obligados a lucir unos rid�culos chalecos de color naranja fosforescente.
En cuanto al sufrimiento del toro durante la lidia, creo que es bastante relativo. O sea, seguro que el pobre animal no se parte de la risa mientras es picado, banderilleado, estoqueado y finalmente apuntillado,(bueno, finalmente no, porque despues del arrastre, suelen llegar al desolladero con un h�lito de vida, aunque no s� si con consciencia y sensibilidad) pero las granjas de engorde que yo conozco, en las que los pobres animales estan constantemente estabulados, no conocen la luz del sol ni el color de la hierba, se alimentan casi exclusivamente de piensos de pescado, y mueren en mataderos con seis meses de vida, tampoco me parecen guateques dominicales(o, �es que solo comeis hamburguesas y salchichas tof�? A�n as� otro dia hablaremos del derecho a la vida de la soja germinada, las coles y las zanahorias).Creo que los 20 minutos de sufrimiento en la Plaza son un precio bastante bajo por varios a�os de vida de lujo en semilibertad. He visto escenas de p�nico y agon�as en mataderos m�s largas que muchas corridas.

Posted 12 Dic 2003 at 5:36 pm ¶
san dimas wrote:

Para ir a cazar, ya no nos vestimos de verde camuflaje. Estamos obligados a lucir unos rid�culos chalecos de color naranja fosforescente.
En cuanto al sufrimiento del toro durante la lidia, creo que es bastante relativo. O sea, seguro que el pobre animal no se parte de la risa mientras es picado, banderilleado, estoqueado y finalmente apuntillado,(bueno, finalmente no, porque despues del arrastre, suelen llegar al desolladero con un h�lito de vida, aunque no s� si con consciencia y sensibilidad) pero las granjas de engorde que yo conozco, en las que los pobres animales estan constantemente estabulados, no conocen la luz del sol ni el color de la hierba, se alimentan casi exclusivamente de piensos de pescado, y mueren en mataderos con seis meses de vida, tampoco me parecen guateques dominicales(o, �es que solo comeis hamburguesas y salchichas tof�? A�n as� otro dia hablaremos del derecho a la vida de la soja germinada, las coles y las zanahorias).Creo que los 20 minutos de sufrimiento en la Plaza son un precio bastante bajo por varios a�os de vida de lujo en semilibertad. He visto escenas de p�nico y agon�as en mataderos m�s largas que muchas corridas.

Posted 12 Dic 2003 at 5:36 pm ¶
san dimas wrote:

Para ir a cazar, ya no nos vestimos de verde camuflaje. Estamos obligados a lucir unos rid�culos chalecos de color naranja fosforescente.
En cuanto al sufrimiento del toro durante la lidia, creo que es bastante relativo. O sea, seguro que el pobre animal no se parte de la risa mientras es picado, banderilleado, estoqueado y finalmente apuntillado,(bueno, finalmente no, porque despues del arrastre, suelen llegar al desolladero con un h�lito de vida, aunque no s� si con consciencia y sensibilidad) pero las granjas de engorde que yo conozco, en las que los pobres animales estan constantemente estabulados, no conocen la luz del sol ni el color de la hierba, se alimentan casi exclusivamente de piensos de pescado, y mueren en mataderos con seis meses de vida, tampoco me parecen guateques dominicales(o, �es que solo comeis hamburguesas y salchichas tof�? A�n as� otro dia hablaremos del derecho a la vida de la soja germinada, las coles y las zanahorias).Creo que los 20 minutos de sufrimiento en la Plaza son un precio bastante bajo por varios a�os de vida de lujo en semilibertad. He visto escenas de p�nico y agon�as en mataderos m�s largas que muchas corridas.

Posted 12 Dic 2003 at 5:38 pm ¶
Strepto wrote:

Para esto de las corridas de toros y como �l lo ha dicho mejor que yo s�lo suscribir las palabras de Vargas Llosa en lo que respecta a los «derechos de los animales», por cierto que a mi si me gustan las corridas de toros (es un pecado que tendr� que expiar :-D):

El art�culo en cuesti�n se llama: CLOROFILA Y BOSTA y aparece aqu�:

http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/3627/rigoberto.htm#CLOROFILA%20Y%20BOSTA

Posted 12 Dic 2003 at 5:56 pm ¶
Beria wrote:

Yo tambien tengo mis dudas con respecto a todo esto, a mi tortura me parecen las condiciones en que viven los animales en las grandes explotaciones agricolas. La tauromaquia puede ser cruel, pero comparemos el numero de animales sacrificados con el numero de animales obligados no solo a morir, sino tambien a vivir toda su vida en segun que condiciones.
Ademas, lo que dice Alfredo de que «un plan de reconversi�n del sector derivar�a con sencillez a los trabajadores de la tauromaquia hacia otras labores» me parece a mi9 mas facil de decir que de hacer, y si no que se lo pregunten a los mineros asturianos, por ejemplo.
Reconvertir a gente que no sabe hacer otra cosa y que no ha visto en su casa, durante generaciones, mas actividad economica que la relacionada con los toros no es tan sencillo.
P.D.: Strepto, a mi tambien me gustan,solo que mi condicion de progre hara seguaramente que la penitencia sea mas dura 😀

Saludos y buen finde

Posted 12 Dic 2003 at 6:19 pm ¶
Yagoda wrote:

Joder, San Dimas, me has dejado impresionado con eso de que el animal todavia esta vivo cuando llega a la carniceria. Que angustioso, joder.
Por lo demas, el toro de lidia debe de ser el tipo de ganado que lleva una vida mas regalada…hasta la salvajada final, claro.
Si pensasemos en los derechos de los animales, por supuesto que habria que mirar antes para las gallinas y las vacas de las granjas de engorde, que viven en una tortura perpetua. Lo que ocurre es que son problemas distintos:
-En las granjas sacrificamos (discretamente) la vida de millones de animales para conseguir un beneficio economico
-En las corridas de toros se celebra un espectaculo publico, en el que toda la sociedad se revuelca en la crueldad. Es algo obsceno, moralmente esta a la altura de un linchamiento o de un auto de fe. Mientras en la arena torturan a un ser vivo, en las gradas la orquesta toca pasodobles.
Por otra parte es interesante el tema de las corridas como se�a de identidad espanola. Aqui en Asturias, y en Galicia igual, tengo entendido que las pocas corridas que se celebran al ano solo son posibles con subvenciones publicas. �Por que nuestros politicos se gastan los (escasos) cuartos del contribuyente en un espectaculo ajeno a nuestra cultura? Por motivos patrioticos espanoles. Porque aqui hay que «celebrar» la «fiesta nacional» tambien. Por narices.

Posted 12 Dic 2003 at 6:41 pm ¶
Yagoda wrote:

Ah, y lo mas gracioso de todo, el mismo gobierno del Principado ha prohibido las matanzas caseras de cerdos, que son uno de las tradiciones mas importantes y arraigadas de la vida campesina tradicional. Pero asi favorecen las ganancias de los mataderos. Total, la cultura asturiana es algo prescindible y obsoleto. Ole la grasia!

Posted 12 Dic 2003 at 6:46 pm ¶
Strepto wrote:

Beria te espero entonces en la Primera Iglesia del SantoProtector de los Animales y los Ap�stoles de GreenPeace para que expiemos ese pecado tan b�rbaro.

Salud de un contertulio que te aprecia un mont�n, camarada Beria.

Salud y bienestar para todos los contertulios, este streptococo se va en busca de otros aires hasta la seman que viene. Buen Finde.

Posted 12 Dic 2003 at 6:48 pm ¶
petrus wrote:

Ha tardado mucho en salir el tema de los toros y ya est� aqu�. En la fiesta mueren animales para que unos cuantos se diviertan, dicen los antitaurinos, tambi�n en los mataderos se matan animales para que la gente pueda tomar proteinas, podiamos ser vegetarianos y no matar animales para sobrevivir. En las corridas se tortura a los animales, s�, en parte es cierto, clavarle banderillas o meterle un puyazo a un toro no es darle caricias pero en los toros el sufrimiento est� medido hasta el extremo, el castigo est� reglamentado (forma de los arpones de las banderillas, longitud de las picas, n�mero de castigos y duraci�n), de una manera meticulosa, hasta morbosa, pero esa es la diferencia con otras fiestas donde el �nico l�mite es la capacidad de aguante del animal.

Reconozco muchos defectos a la fiesta, el peor, la falta de bravura de los animales, lo que disminuye el riesgo del torero y va haciendo que la corrida se est� convirtiendo en una especie de ballet. Tambi�n que hay una mafia de empresarios-ganaderos-apoderados que est�n hundiendo la fiesta, desde dentro, haciendo infinitamente m�s da�o que la oposici�n de los antitaurinos.

En el lado positivo, que gracias a los toros hay en espa�a dos millones de hect�reas de dehesas, que albergan una gran vida salvaje. Y hay una raza de animales que en vez de estar en v�as de desaparici�n, va en aumento. Que se les hace da�os, pues s�, pero si hacemos caso a los defensores recalcitrantes de los animales, tambi�n habr�a que evitar que los animales salvajes que est�n dentro de los parques nacionales (est�n bajo la tutela del estado, �no?), se coman unos a otros y se destrocen y hagan esas cosas tan desagradables que pone la 2 a la hora de la siesta. Adem�s, es que esto de los toros es irracional, o te gusta o no te gusta, es como ser del bar�a o del madrid, es inexplicable.

Posted 12 Dic 2003 at 7:08 pm ¶
xxx wrote:

«-En las granjas sacrificamos (discretamente) la vida de millones de animales para conseguir un beneficio economico». Claro, la econom�a es sagrada. Entiendo que este razonamiento podr�a justificar algo como por ejemplo:
«-En las f�bricas explotamos (discretamente) la vida de millones de trabajadores para conseguir un beneficio economico». 🙂

Posted 12 Dic 2003 at 8:21 pm ¶
alfredo_MG wrote:

Petrus, l�gicamente los toros gustan igual que gustar�an las peleas de perros o gallos si se televisaran, o las luchas de gladiadores si hubiese circos romanos todav�a, donde la gente har�a quinielas apostando al samnita o al retiarius. Calificas de ‘irracional’ ese gusto, y es justo as�. Pero en la historia de la humanidad, que parece no ser otra cosa que la historia de la propia domesticaci�n, hace tiempo que prima lo racional. Volvemos a lo mismo, �valoramos la belleza en s� misma o la subordinamos a una moral universal? Si decidimos que la belleza tiene valor por s� misma, v�monos todos al circo. Tambi�n dices que las dehesas existen gracias al mundo del toro, claro, y los cazadores son b�sicos para mantener el equilibrio ecol�gico, como ellos pregonan (�por favor!).
Beria dice que un plan de reconversi�n no ser�a sencillo, pero en el mundo del toro no hay miles de profesionales en un punto geogr�fico. Su dispersi�n facilita ese plan, al que s�lo habr�a que aportar el dinero que todos invertimos sin saberlo en la tauromaquia.
En cuanto a los que os gustan los toros, no har� falta que vay�is a la Iglesia del Santo Protector de los Animales. Se est� confeccionando un l�tigo de siete puntas con publicidad de LPD con el objetivo de que os flagel�is mientras colabor�is con el mantenimiento de la p�gina.

Posted 12 Dic 2003 at 8:22 pm ¶
Strepto wrote:

Es que uno se quiere ir de marcha y estos colegas de LPD venga a escribir cosas interesantes.

Hombre Alfredo, s�lo fue una iron�a perfectamente inocua, respeto a quienes les desagrada la «fiesta» (que bien han dicho por aqu� no tiene nada de nacional), puedo entender sus argumentos pero qu� te puedo decir, tengo mi lado cavernario y eso que me cre�a tan avanzado yo con mis treintaymuchos…

En todo caso como es viernes y adem�s ya se ha dicho todo vuelvo a recomendar este link con el art�culo de Vargas Llosa que menciono y con el que estoy completamente de acuerdo:

http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/3627/rigoberto.htm#CLOROFILA%20Y%20BOSTA

Adeu y ahora s� buen finde.

Posted 12 Dic 2003 at 8:32 pm ¶
Yagoda wrote:

«Claro, la econom�a es sagrada. Entiendo que este razonamiento podr�a justificar algo como por ejemplo:
«-En las f�bricas explotamos (discretamente) la vida de millones de trabajadores para conseguir un beneficio economico». :-)»

Podriamos, tal vez. Ahora dime en que parte de mi mensaje doy a entender que yo estoy justificando nada, o que me parezca bien la sobreexplotacion de los animales.
Sigues sin saber leer, XXX. A ver si te lo dejo claro ahora:
Las corridas de toros me parecen inmorales y repugnantes (y lo siento porque hay aqui personas que respeto y que disfrutan con los toros). Las granjas de engorde me parecen campos de concentracion para animales, me da grima y angustia pensar en ellas. Es mas, no esta solo la cuestion de los derechos de los animales, es que ademas esas granjas y ese modelo de explotacion son las que despues te dan sorpresas ocasionales, que si encefalopatia que si dioxinas.
Te ha quedado claro ahora, o te lo pongo en morse?

Posted 12 Dic 2003 at 8:36 pm ¶
petrus wrote:

Si llevamos el racionalismo a todos los aspectos de nuestra vida, tendriamos que prohibir los partidos de futbol (miles de personas rugiendo, gritando, insultado al �rbitro), las discotecas (chimpum, chimpum, el ruido atronador, la gente hablando a voces, tragando humo), cr�nicas marcianas y cuantas cosas m�s est�pidas que hacemos/vemos a lo largo del d�a.

Los toros forman parte de nuestra cultura mediterr�nea desde hace miles de a�os, en unas zonas de espa�a m�s que en otras, en el sur de francia tienen un pujanza grand�sima, por ejemplo. A m� lo que m�s me gusta en su autenticidad, todo en la fiesta tiene su raz�n y su utilidad, que el toro sufre, s�, pero a cambio de una vida en libertad y en la naturaleza que muy pocos animales tienen en la tierra hoy en d�a. Es que convencer a un antitaurino es imposible, por eso no sigo, bueno tampoco quiero convencer a nadie.

Posted 12 Dic 2003 at 8:55 pm ¶
xxx wrote:

«Lo que ocurre es que son problemas distintos».

Se leer perfectamente. Lo que no tengo tan claro es que usted sepa explicarse.

Posted 12 Dic 2003 at 9:10 pm ¶
Muab�Dib wrote:

«La tortura, ni arte ni cultura»

Gracias por la estad�stica Alfredo, la verdad es q muchas he pensado eso de los toros. En mi vida he visto a una corrida entera (de toros), lo reconozco.

Debe ser q un servidor es nacido en la celtib�rica provincia de Asturias. Las plazas de toros q tenemos all� las usamos para los conciertos de S.Mateo y gracias. Hablar de toros en Asturias se sentencia con la frase «Eso, de Pajares para abajo».

Cuando en Irlanda me hablaban de si los toros y tal,les dec�a q a m� eso me daba de lado q yo era del Norte toda la gente se sorprend�a la verdad. As� q agradezco esos datos para darme cuenta de q no soy un elemento extra�o en este pa�s.

PD: pese a ser asturiano llevo a�os viviendo en la capital de Espa�aza y frecuentando sus barras pero ni con eso se me pega el supuesto gracejo castizo. Un d�a llamar� a �lvaro para q me las ense�e ;D

Posted 12 Dic 2003 at 9:31 pm ¶
Muab�Dib wrote:

Por cierto eso de q es Arte.. �quien lo firma? �El se�or Arthur C. Danto de q hablaba Pablo el otro d�a?

Posted 12 Dic 2003 at 9:35 pm ¶
Muab�Dib wrote:

«de quien hablaba Pablo» (jope, se me olvido revisar el texto, a la pr�xima cojo el emule y me flagelo con el Accu-Type)

Posted 12 Dic 2003 at 9:36 pm ¶
san dimas wrote:

Apart�ndome un poco del tema, es dificil decir que autonom�as son m�s taurinas que otras. Parecer�a que Catalu�a no es de las m�s; sin embargo, Barcelona es la �nica ciudad del mundo que ha tenido tres plazas de toros en activo: Las Arenas, La Monumental y El Toril. Esta �ltima estaba en el barrio de la Barceloneta, y segun la leyenda, en una tarde de domingo de 1909 se lidiaron 6 toros, los 6 malos; debido a ello, el p�blico enfurecido le prendi� fuego, siendo este hecho el origen de La Setmana Tr�gica.

Posted 13 Dic 2003 at 12:05 am ¶
Paquirrin wrote:

Nunca me han llamado mucho la atencion los toros pero me siento obligado a lanzar una pregunta a todos aquellos que tanto se preocupan por los derechos de los animales y anhelan la probicion de dicho expectaculo. No os parece que en nuestra sociedad estamos haciendo cosas mucho peores y nadie dice nada al respecto? Pongamos el caso del aborto, exceptuando aquellos casos en los que ha habido un violacion de por medio, una malformacion del feto o peligro para la vida de la madre, no os parece mucho peor un aborto que una corrida de toros? pues bien, no se cuantas corridas de toros se llevan a cabo en Espa�a al a�o, pero el numero de abortos es 30,000 y dudo mucho que un gran porcentaje de ellos se debe a las causas mencionadas anteriormente.

Posted 13 Dic 2003 at 1:02 am ¶
xxx wrote:

Siguiendo en la misma l�nea quisiera recordar que en su juventud Jon Id�goras -por si no recuerdan el nombre, antiguo vocero de herri batasuna- fue novillero.

Posted 13 Dic 2003 at 1:05 am ¶
Paquirrin wrote:

Ok, ya se que me he apartado un poco del tema con mi comentario, pero joder, creo que en Espa�a tenemos en estos momentos cuestiones mas importantes de las que ocuparnos que la ilegalizacion o no de las corridas de toritos.

Posted 13 Dic 2003 at 1:59 am ¶
Ava wrote:

Creo que aunque est�is rondando con mucho acierto la cuesti�n con vuestros argumentos, no termin�is de enfocar bien el tema.

El problema de fondo es tan sencillo como preguntar si es necesario hacer sufrir innecesariamente a un animal, dejando a un lado excusas aberrantes que todos hemos oido, del tipo «el toro no sufre», «tiene una piel tan gruesa que no lo nota», «el toro tiene las mismas oportunidades que el torero (�?)», etc�tera. Es evidente que vi�ndolo de forma objetiva, la corrida de toros es un proceso de tortura a un animal, hasta llevarlo a la muerte, para al final consumir su carne o usarlo como trofeo, objetivos que se pueden conseguir con una muerte r�pida. Es una realidad objetiva m�s all� de apasionamientos a favor o en contra.

�Es leg�timo hacer sufrir a ese animal? La preocupaci�n por el sufrimiento animal se justifica por la empat�a que somos capaces de sentir los seres humanos (salvo psic�patas) de poder ponernos en el lugar del otro e intentar imaginar lo que el otro est� experimentado. Todos sabemos y hemos vivido que los animales sufren y todos consideramos el dolor como una experiencia negativa a evitar. S�lo hay que ser consecuentes con nuestra naturaleza para intentar evitar el dolor animal de la misma forma que intentamos evitar el dolor propio. No hacerlo es negar al otro, animal u hombre (tal y como se entrena a los soldados en una guerra), su capacidad para sufrir y por lo tanto nuestra propia capacidad humana para identificarnos con �llos como seres capaces de sentir.

Este hecho es una realidad. Muchos argumentan que tambi�n matamos animales para consumo y beneficio propio. Lamentablemente mientras los seres humanos no sean capaces de fotosintetizar como una vulgar hierba, estamos condenados a consumir otros seres vivos. Pero si algo es notable en la naturaleza, es que a pesar de la supuesta crueldad del orden natural en el que estamos inmersos, esta carece del tipo de crueldad que esgrimimos los humanos. Dicho de otra forma; en la naturaleza, la muerte y el asesinato son una constante necesaria pero en los que nunca prima el sufrimiento gratuito. A un lobo no le interesa que su presa sufra, sino que muera r�pidamente. Esto es as� hasta el punto que aquellos animales que son presa natural de depredadores suelen tener mecanismos por los que se sumergen en una par�lisis anestesiante en el momento en el que son cazados; es un proceso que agiliza la muerte necesaria de la presa. La propia naturaleza, amoral por no tener capacidad de decisi�n por si misma, acierta m�s en su funcionamiento que el hombre, que si tiene capacidad de elecci�n y por lo tanto, moral.

Matamos animales. s�. Pero en los mataderos, condiciones de vida y transporte del ganado aparte, motivadas por los dioses del capitalismo que son la competencia y la rentabilidad (nada en contra de ellos, salvo que se hace a toda costa y por encima de todo), a la hora de matar al animal se emplean medidas r�pidas como percutores o descargas el�ctricas que si no matan, atontan a la presa lo suficiente para que muera sin dolor. As� que ya no solo intentamos ahorrarle el dolor a las mascotas que tenemos, cualquier amo de perro y gato sabe lo que es desvivirse por que su animal no sufra, sino que a un nivel general e incluso en nuestras leyes sobre sacrificio animal, intentamos que no aparezca m�s dolor que el estrictamente necesario. Hasta en las culturas de todo el globo, por antiguas que sean, siempre se intenta que la muerte animal en un sacrificio sea r�pida. Lo contrario, como la corrida de toros, es una anormalidad.

Habiendo considerado como ileg�timo prolongar un sufrimiento m�s all� de lo estrictamente necesario, no hay base para justificar una corrida de toros, que es b�sicamente una tortura alargada. Queda el problema cultural.

A las corridas se las llama erroneamente «la fiesta nacional». No s�lo es un t�rmino err�neo ahora, que las apoya s�lo una peque�a minor�a, sino que desde los tiempos en los que surgi� el t�rmino «fiesta nacional» all� por el siglo XIX, este fue vivamente discutido; las corridas fueron impuestas por una peque�a minor�a, asociada al poder ante la indiferencia de la mayor parte de la poblaci�n, y as� sigue siendo. Aunque es verdad que la ra�z de las corridas de toros se remonta a la oscura �poca pregriega (micenas y dem�s), no siempre ha sido un ritual de dolor y sacrificio. Desmpolvando la historia, en tiempos la corrida de toros no consistia en otra cosa que ponerse delante del animal y agarrarse a los cuernos cuando este embist�a para saltar por encima de �l. Que una fiesta venga de la otra no quiere decir que sean de la misma calidad.

El respeto a las tradiciones se cae por su propio peso. Es muy curioso como a todo el mundo no le cuesta nada mostrarse en contra con la tradici�n de lapidar a las mujeres ad�lteras o cortar una mano a los ladrones, arraigadas en buena parte del globo, pero piden el respeto para la fiesta de toros por ser una tradici�n. Tambi�n ha sido tradici�n en pueblos de Espa�a atar gallinas a un cable para que a continuaci�n los mozos del pueblo se cuelguen del cuello del animal hasta que este se desgaja y no creo que a nadie le cueste ver eso como un acto vomitivo. La pregunta es �qu� tradiciones no son respetables? La pregunta ya est� contestada; m�s all� de la discutible justificaci�n que se busque en cada momento (adulterio, robo, supuesta belleza del ritual de los toros) lo que las hace repugnantes es el innecesario dolor, muerte y mutilaci�n que provocan, aunque el sacrificio r�pido del toro s� podr�a estar justificado para su consumo, pero entonces ya no habr�a fiesta.

La cuesti�n de la belleza del ritual ya la ha contestado Alfredo. Belleza o por lo menos capacidad de provocarnos excitaci�n la hay hasta en un incendio forestal, en una guerra, en una batalla o en una tragedia con asesinatos. Antes de que alguien me acuse de s�dico, hay que hacerse esta pregunta �cuantas veces nos hemos estremecido al ver escenas de este tipo en pel�culas o teatro, o al leerlas en novelas? �Pero eso las justifica? En la ficci�n , lo �nico que las justifica es que son ficci�n y nos da la oportunidad de verlas, llamando a nuestros instintos sin provocar victimas reales que no deseamos. En la realidad son aborrecibles y la respuesta est� nuevamente en el dolor gratuito, en la cat�strofe innecesaria que conllevan. Exactamente igual que la fiesta de toros.
A los seres humanos nos fascina la destrucci�n instintivamente, pero la aborrecemos por que sabemos el dolor y la agon�a que conllevan.

La �nica raz�n por la que se argumenta en contra de suprimir las corridas de toros es por que estas llaman a la pulsi�n profunda de los seres humanos a excitarse con las anormalidades, con las situaciones extremas, con la visualizaci�n de un conflicto intenso. Luego esto se adorna con adjetivos de belleza, ritual y tradici�n. Hay quien ha equiparado el f�tbol, las peleas de gladiadores y las peleas de perros a los toros. En el caso de los perros y gladiadores como en el de los toros, estos rituales satisfacen la necesidad de excitaci�n de las personas, pero cualquiera con un m�nimo de sensibilidad los rechaza por pura empat�a hacia el sufrimiento de los protagonistas. En el caso del f�tbol, aunque la intensidad del conflicto excita la mente, lo normal, hasta que los jugadores no se maten entre ellos, es que no haya un sufrimiento innecesario en escena, por lo que no pasa de ser un conflicto inofensivo.

Por �ltimo, como apuntaba Alfredo, si de lo que se trata es de conservar una especie, hay mil mecanismos para ello, y montes donde crear una reserva los hay a patadas, am�n de que no s�lo es la corrida de toros la que tiene necesidad de la especie sino tambi�n todo un sector gastron�mico que podr�a asegurar su cr�a con el debido marketing. Petrus argumentaba que un factor de mantenimiento de las dehesas era la cria del toro en ellas. Lo cierto es que si se abandonara la ganader�a del toro bravo, no s�lo no se iban a perder las dehesas sino que con el adecuado tratamiento forestal lo m�s probable es que estas dehesas se acabaran convirtiendo en frondosos bosques de encina y alcornoque; el principal fen�meno en la espa�a rural desde hace 20 a�os es el paso de inmensas cantidades de terreno agr�cola y ganadero a terreno forestal por el puro abandono del campo.

De todas formas, posicionamientos aparte, a no ser que las cosas cambien de ra�z, la fiesta de toros est� condenada a desaparecer o a convertirse en una caricatura de si misma para entretener a los turistas. Los propios expertos, y no hay m�s que oir un programa radiof�nico taurino, se quejan constantemente de la caida de asistencia del p�blico, de su cada vez menor entendimiento de las normas del ritual, de la peor calidad de los toros buscada por los propios toreros para no arriesgar el cuerpo, etc. En definitiva, est� en declive, en mi opini�n, por fortuna.

Bueno, siento el tochazo. Ya es hora de ir a dormir la mona.

Posted 13 Dic 2003 at 5:19 am ¶
san dimas wrote:

M�s comparaciones entre el futbol y los toros: los deportistas y civilizados espectadores del futbol deben ser cacheados a la entrada de los estadios para comprovar que no portan armas, y se impide el consumo de cualquier bebida alcoh�lica; a�n as�, cada a�o mueren espectadores en peleas o a causa de bengalas, cuando no en tumultos multidudinarios. A los salvajes y neandertales aficionados a los toros, se nos permite el comsumo de alcohol e incluso en ocasiones compartimos una bota de vino con el torero, arrojada por algun aficionado, al que es devuelta por los subalternos despues de la oportuna libaci�n. El efecto e intencion de los objetos arrojados al campo en los estadios es muy distinto.

Posted 13 Dic 2003 at 10:03 am ¶
antonienko wrote:

Ante todo, un saludo a todos, ya que soy nuevo por estos lares…

Sobre el �ltimo comentario realizado por «san dimas», te dir�a que los salvajes y neandertales aficionados a los toros no reaccionan como en el f�tbol, porque no tienen a la hinchada del equipo rival al ladito.

Y te lo digo por experiencia. Un acto de protesta que organic�, junto con 40 amigos m�s, fue asistir a una corrida de toros, a la que conseguimos entrar pancartas ocultas en las mochilas, para «animar» al toro y desear que «ganara» al torero.

Pues el linchamiento verbal fue increible, incluso el lanzamiento de objetos hacia nosotros. Pero ning�n tiparraco de los que all� hab�a se atrevi� a intentar acercarse (hay que decir que de los 40, 10 o 15 somos jugadores de f�tbol americano, con lo cual la cobard�a de la gente estaba medio justificada)… pero ganas de pegarnos no les faltaban. Yo sin ir m�s lejos, recib� un latazo, con una lata llena, en mis costillas.

Lo peor de todo fue que el objetivo no se consigui�. Y el objetivo no era liarnos a patadas con la gente de all�, sino salir en los medios de comunicaci�n… que sospechosamente, silenciaron el tema.

Saludos a todos, apologistas del asesinato, y personas decentes 😉

Posted 13 Dic 2003 at 10:47 am ¶
petrus wrote:

Futbol americano? En ese deporte no mueren varios jugadores al a�o y hay no se cu�ntos lisiados? Uno de los deportes m�s violentos que se conocen. De todas formas, nunca ir�a a hacer un boicot de un partido de �stos.

Que no se preocupen los antitaurinos, que la fiesta va cuesta abajo, pero se la est�n cargando desde dentro, las mafias de empresarios y las ganader�as cada vez m�s mansotas. El d�a que no haya toros, viviremos mejor. La �nica sangre que veremos ser� la de los entrecots poco hechos y las hamburguesas de mcdonald poco pasadas, y en las dehesas donde ahora viven las aguilas, buitres, gamos y ciervos junto a los toros, pues construiremos parques tem�ticos, hileras de adosados o pol�gonos industriales, vamos, como en europa. Y las plazas, sin problemas, ya est�n siendo recalificadas. Est�n en muy buenos sitios, un corte ingl�s o un multicines donde ponen trescientas pel�culas americanas al a�o, no faltar�n.

Posted 13 Dic 2003 at 12:17 pm ¶
Muab�Dib wrote:

Paquirrin lo del aborto lo estamos debatiendo en el blog de Pablo.

Yagoda, lo q se ha hecho y hace con la cultura asturiana (en todas sus vertientes) es vergonzoso.

Es lo q tiene ser un ejemplo de convivencia en Espa�aza, como apuntaba alguno de LPD (�Guille? hace mucho: lengua en vias de desaparici�n por ejemplo (nos sumamos al selecto club del Aragon�s y el Gallego).

Posted 13 Dic 2003 at 2:28 pm ¶
Ava wrote:

Bueno el f�tbol como tal, y que conste que a mi no me gusta, es inofensivo por mucha pasi�n que se le eche, no se hace da�o a nadie en el campo (de momento). Otra cosa es que haya energ�menos dispuestos a convertirlo en una sangr�a; no es un problema de f�tbol sino de aficionados, que se podr�a haber dado en cualquier otro espect�culo que se hubiera mediatizado tanto como este deporte. Aunque ser�a un poco dif�cil imaginar que un aficionado a Kasparov mate a otro por que este perdi� contra Karpov, pero con la suficiente manipulaci�n emocional del personal podr�a ser posible.

Posted 13 Dic 2003 at 3:36 pm ¶
antonienko wrote:

No viene al caso de la discusi�n, pero Petrus, en el f�tbol americano ni mucho menos hay varios lisiados y muertos al a�o.

Recientemente hubo un par de defunciones, m�s bien relacionadas con el sobreesfuerzo y la competitividad por entrar en el equipo titular (y alg�n que otro chute de efedrina, seguramente…).

Lisiados, bien poquitos (no m�s que en cualquier otro deporte), a no ser que te refieras al colgado que se hizo cortar el dedo me�ique para poder jugar la superbowl… claro, era eso o estar dos semanas escayolado y no poder jugarla…

Pero bueno, la cuesti�n es que, aunque as� fuera (muertos y lisiados), la gente que est� jugando lo est� voluntariamente… Y te puedo asegurar, por experiencia, que es un deporte much�simo m�s limpio que otros, como el f�tbol (soccer) mismo, o el balonmano… Y algo m�s sacrificado.

Saludos

Posted 13 Dic 2003 at 8:00 pm ¶
Yagoda wrote:

Muab�Dib, da gusto ver un compatriota que se da cuenta de lo que nos han hecho y siguen haciendo, fuera del gueto cibernetico formado por Asturies.com, Asturias Digital, Celtiberia.net y poco mas. Nos estan borrando del mapa, pero al menos hay uno o dos chalados que protestamos.
Petrus, yo vivo al lado del mar Cantabrico, a once horas por carretera del puerto mediterraneo mas proximo. Me rodea un tipico paisaje oceanico, con praderias y bosques de robles y hayas. En los montes asturianos las nevadas empiezan hacia noviembre y terminan en marzo mas o menos: al menos era asi hasta hace veinte anos, cuando llego el cambio climatico.
Vivo en un pais de sidra y mantequilla, de gaita y panderos cuadrados. Sabias que el violin y el arpa estan entre los instrumentos tradicionales de Asturias? Sabias que nuestra mitologia es casi identica a la de Bretana y las Islas?
Nuestra cultura gira en torno a la vaca lechera, no al toro de lidia, y nuestros caballos son asturcones, ponys celtas parientes cercanos del pony de Exmoor.
Mi pregunta es: Que hay de «mediterraneo» en nosotros? Por que deberiamos sentirnos identificados con los habituales estereotipos «latinos» o «hispanos»?

Posted 14 Dic 2003 at 5:26 pm ¶
Garganta Profunda wrote:

Si entendemos como «latino» el arquetipo de chaval hipermusculado con sonrisa profiden vestido con camisa ajustada con la mitad de los botones desabrochados luciendo un pecho afeitado cual bebe y pantalon marca-paquetes que se mueve compulsivamente al son de canciones de Ricky Martin o Chayanne, mientras dos nenas hiperjamonas le hacen las coreografias…unicamente a�adir que NI YO QUIERO SER LATINO!

Posted 14 Dic 2003 at 5:49 pm ¶
Octubre Rojo wrote:

Pues para no ser de origen latino dominas bien el castellano. Imagino que las carreteras, la red electrica, el ordenador que tienes delante, son todo invento celta tambien. Pues nada, a crear un partido independentista que defienda el rh cantabro.

Posted 14 Dic 2003 at 7:02 pm ¶
Garganta Profunda wrote:

Para Octubre Rojo:

-Primeras autopistas: Construidas en Alemania en 1930.
-Inventor de la lampara incandescente: Thomas Alva Edison (USA)
-Primeros ordenadores: Desarrollados a partir de telares de tarjetas perforadas por Leibnitz (Alemania)

Inventos latinos: El ritmo, la pasion, la sabrossssura…

(espero que pilles la ironia)

Posted 14 Dic 2003 at 7:45 pm ¶
Yagoda wrote:

«Pues nada, a crear un partido independentista que defienda el rh cantabro»
Aqui nadie hablaba de Cantabria pero efectivamente, habria que inventar el racismo de corte asturianista porque ni existe ni ha existido nunca. Yo milito en un partido nacionalista asturiano, aunque no estabamos hablando de eso.
�Llegara el dia en que podamos hablar de la diversidad cultural, sin que salte algun fanatico espanolista a defender la lengua del imperio, la pureza de la raza y la gloria de Pizarro? Paciencia.
Por cierto, si llego a esperar el desarrollo de la «tecnologia latina» para tener un ordenador decente, lo iba a tener claro.

Posted 14 Dic 2003 at 8:30 pm ¶
petrus wrote:

Yo no digo que tenga que haber toros donde no hay tradici�n, como asturias, lo que quiero es que se mantenga donde hay tradici�n y afici�n como en el mediterr�neo.

Bueno, a lo mejor, estoy equivocado con el futbol americano, pero lo tengo por un deporte si no violento en sus fines, s� en su pr�ctica.

Y que la latinidad no tiene que ver con ricky martin ni con la salsa, sino por la herencia cultural de los romanos, latinos (del lacio). Y somos latinos por nuestro idioma, costumbres, derecho y etc, etc.

Posted 14 Dic 2003 at 9:16 pm ¶
Muab�Dib wrote:

A ver, Octubre Rojo, joer! (perdona q me indigne)q pasa? por el hecho de ser asturianistas tenemos q ser racistas. No acepto ese silogismo.

Lo de Celta y Latino, leches! la influencia celta es anterior a la latina, o tu hablas �bero?

Por cierto, Yagoda yo soy de Luarca aunq llevo en la capital del reino 6 a�os y un problema q me encuentro es q no les entra en la cabeza q en la periferia las cosas se ven muy muy distintas.

Les hablas de asturiano y se r�en de t� dicendo q es el castellano acabao en «e» (en mi zona nadie acaba las palabras en «e» por cierto -eso es en oriente y centro-). Lo q no saben es q eso es porq MI generaci�n aprendi� antes el castellano y se educ� en castellano. No creo q palabras como Avientu, Folixa, Furar, Esnalar, Esborriar.. sean muy castellanas.

Ade+, el asturiano viene del Lat�n tb, q casualidad = el Gallego (q por cierto lo hablo con fluidez -motivos familiares y facilidades como la TVG- cosa q el Asturiano me cuesta)as� q el Gallego debe ser el Castellano acabado en «ou».

Por cierto, el ascenso del PAS se fu� a la porra porq el Xuan es un caradura.

Se te olvida mencionar el robo de Le�n, q hace con Castilla? si hasta en su franja Norte gana el Partido Asturianista?

Ta�llueu

PD: Perd�n, me qued� un poco largo

Posted 14 Dic 2003 at 9:20 pm ¶
Ga�af�n wrote:

Hola pseudo progres. El camino f�cil os viene bien siempre. Pero en verdad ni idea. Por su puesto que soy aficionado como el que m�s a eso que llam�is salvajada; y por su puesto como alguno de vosotros neg�is, soy joven; por lo mismo que tambi�n intento ir de pseudo progre, es decir: considerarme de izquierdas: la que pierde siempre aqu� aplastada por una mayor�a absoluta que descarga la derecha -menos en catalunya, aleluya-, pero tengo ese «defecto»: soy aficionado a los toros.

Y tampoco voy a hablar de cultura, ni mucho menos de la cultura que permite la tauromaquia, dejando a un lado a ortega y gasset, lorca, gerardo diego goya, hemingway, blasco ib��ez, garc�a marquez, vagas llosa, albert boadella, cela, picasso, ava gadner, bergam�n y otros muchos, porque ser�a la t�pica canci�n que nos gastamos los aficionados a todas horas…

Lo q quer�a decir es q ser aficionado a los toros, cuesta, adem�s de dinero, cuesta tiempo y sacrificio intelectual; pero es mucho mejor ir de pseudoecol�gicoprogre, mucho mejor visto socialmente, y mientras cerrar la mente, y de espaldas despotricar siendo m�s papista que el papa y m�s antitaurino que los mismos taurinos.

Posted 15 Dic 2003 at 11:34 am ¶
Ricard wrote:

Si las Dehesas se convierten en casitas apareadas o en supermercados, la culpa no es de la desaparici�n de los toros, sino de la brutal especulaci�n del terreno y la catadura moral de nuestros amados pol�ticos.

Posted 15 Dic 2003 at 12:37 pm ¶
Ricard wrote:

Ga�af�n, que te cueste dinero lo entiendo, porque nada en esta vida es gratis. Ahora, que te cueste sacrificio intelectual, perm�teme que lo dude.

Posted 15 Dic 2003 at 12:39 pm ¶
El anonimo del otro dia wrote:

Alguien duda todavia de que la civilizacion europea, y por ende, la occidental, viene directamente de la tradicion latina, que filtro a su vez la helena? Duda alguien de que Andalucia, con solo cinco siglos de historia «occidental», sea mas latina que arabe? Es posible que alguno de mis admirados foreros no sepa que lo latino es Virgilio y no Ricky Martin? Oh, decepcion…

Posted 15 Dic 2003 at 2:08 pm ¶
Ga�af�n wrote:

Desorbitada la palabra «sacrificio» quiz�, y tambi�n quiz� me expliqu� malament. Me refer�a yo con lo del sacrificio a q hoy en d�a la gente ocupa el tiempo libre en ociar en asuntos, aficiones que requieren poco o nada de las entendederas (3horas y media diarias frente a la tele de media sirva como bot�n), sucediendo todo lo contrario con los toros: me refiero al toro, al toreo y todo lo que rodea a la fiesta, pero no voy a hacer, porque ni es mi intenci�n ni es el sitio ni el momento adecuado, un tratado de tauromaquia, ni a explicar las car�cter�sticas morfol�gicas y psicol�gicas del toro de lidia desde su crianza hasta su lidia y muerte en la plaza.

Tan solo quer�a justificar eso del «sacrificio», q por supuesto q si se hace por afici�n no es ning�n sacrificio porque no cuesta, lo �nico q hay es inter�s en aprender y conocer m�s, y nunca hay bastante, del mundo de los toros.

Siempre he dicho, y pod�is soltar una carcajada, utilizado al plat�n del mundo sensible y del mundo inteligible q nos explicaron en el instituto, para justificar mi afici�n a los toros respecto de los q no lo son, que en el mundo sensible estar�an aquellos q de la sangre no pasan, y se quedan ah�; en el mundo inteligible, los q van m�s all�. Ahora despu�s de la pedanter�a, os pod�is descojonar.

Que si a unos les parece una salvajada troglodita y una incultura y una degradaci�n moral; a m� justo lo contrario, me parece un arte y un espect�culo q necesitan del ejercicio del intelecto. As�, ricard, del sacrificio entiende, si puedes, a lo q me refiero, m�s ahora cuando la sociedad roza el encefalograma plano, bendita sea la fiesta brava…

que no nazional: eso con s�lo o�rlo mi cuerpo se estremece.

salut.

Posted 15 Dic 2003 at 5:02 pm ¶
ga�af�n wrote:

Ni nacional, ni latina. Los antecedentes del toro bravo nos llegan de m�s atr�s, de Creta.

Y para los q indetifiquen la fiesta brava con el rancio espa�olismo, q tienen todo su derecho porque as� han transcurrido las manipulaciones que se han hecho, decirles que cuando espa�a no era espa�a, los reyes de navarra (casi vascos ellos, o sin el casi) fueron los primeros en contratar y los primeros q pagaron a quien fuera capaz de ponerse delante de un toro en la celebraci�n de sus fiestas reales. Mientras en castilla, donde reinaba alfonso X «el sabio», eso de cobrar por demostrar el valor y la valent�a delante de un toro bravo era tenido por inmoral.

Otra casualidad es q las gentes aquellas q contrato el rey de navarra de la �poca proven�an de la corona de arag�n.

Hablo del 1100-1200.

Posted 15 Dic 2003 at 5:16 pm ¶
An Ony Mousse wrote:

Pues yo no era.

Posted 15 Dic 2003 at 5:54 pm ¶
Strepto wrote:

Concuerdo con Ga�afon en lo que dice, menos con la mala leche. Y aqu� hay muchos que s� sabemos que nuestra cultura latina no es por Ricky Mart�n sino por Virgilio y lo de Creta y todo lo dem�s.

Posted 15 Dic 2003 at 7:54 pm ¶
Garganta Profunda wrote:

Querido Ga�afon:

No pongo en duda que tu realmente sientas «algo» al ver el, en mi opinion, espectaculo mas degradante del que es capaz la especie humana. Hay gente que llora viendo los programas vespertinos de confesiones…esto de las emociones es «asin». Que tu consideres (y metas a Platon en todo esto con lo feliz que era el hombre en su mundo de la ideas) que la fiesta nacional es espectaculo, pase, ya que hay espectaculos peores, pero de ahi a llamarle ARTE… Lo siento. Una pelea de perros, la lucha de gallos, o el arrojar a un cabrito desde un campanario, por poner otros similes menos «suaves» JAMAS pueden ser considerados como ARTE. Ojo! yo aqui no meto en el ajo el rancio espa�olismo, me ci�o al «espectaculo» en si. �Tauromaquia? Un termino no me dice nada. Tambien existe la Quiromancia, la Astrologia, la Homeopatia…palabras que buscan dar solemnidad, y en nuestro caso tronio, a autenticos disparates mas viejos que la tos, que a pesar de todo perduran hasta hoy.

En cuanto al tema «latino» creo que nadie se percato de que hablaba de co�a. Por supuesto que conozco cuando utilizar el «palabro», pero no me negareis que no se ha desvirtuado con el tiempo…

Posted 15 Dic 2003 at 7:59 pm ¶
alfredo_MG wrote:

Ga�af�n, cuando se trata de justificar lo injustificable en cuestiones relacionadas con el maltrato y la tortura a los animales siempre surge una coartada cultural o, en su defecto, la todav�a m�s rid�cula del equilibrio ecol�gico. Cualquier actividad humana que se desarrolle a lo largo de siglos, como la tauromaquia (y m�s en este caso en el que es seguida por bastantes personas), se rodea de ciertos ritos, labores, t�cnicas, vocabulario, tradiciones, liturgias etc, lo mismo en los toros que en el trabajo con el esparto. Eso no justifica la masacre de un animal. De la misma manera, tendr�amos que admitir que se ahorque a los galgos que ya no sirven para cazar porque la milenaria cultura cineg�tica lo exige. En cuanto al esfuerzo intelectual que dedicas a tu afici�n s�lo puede ser comparable al profundo conocimiento de la filosof�a occidental que has exhibido. Dedica tan soberano esfuerzo mental a ponerte en el lugar del toro. El caso de la afici�n a la tauromaquia se incluye en lo que algunos expertos llaman ‘esquizofrenia social’. Se trata, por tanto, de un defecto en la educaci�n social, en la socializaci�n, el mismo tipo de defecto que en tiempos de los romanos hac�a que la gente disfrutase con los combates a muerte, por ejemplo, o con las ejecuciones p�blicas. Esto, l�gicamente, disculpa de alguna manera a los aficionados a los toros. Lo que jam�s me ha parecido disculpable es que tales aficionados no hagan el intento de ponerse en la piel de otro ser vivo. Eso s� es un esfuerzo intelectual que exige constancia.

Posted 15 Dic 2003 at 8:36 pm ¶
er ni�o de nou barris wrote:

Barcelona tuvo tres plazas de Toros, y es m�s en su �poca introdujo la m�sica en las corridas (que supongo fue declarada inconstitucional in illo tempore ;-)). Ahora bien lo de la Semana tr�gica no me lo creo… o como mucho fue la espoleta.

Si hubo violencia entre aficionados altoreo, como la hubo en la zarzuela o en la �pera (anti y procarusso se ahostiaban por un quitame all� esas arias). Numerosos festivales taurinos acababan a palos, e incluso hubo maestros que eran «m�s que un torero» (es decir que los «putos progres» 😉 apoyaban a un maestro y los liberales de toda la vida apoyabn a otro. Libro recomendado «De la muerte de un Dios» de manuel Delgado.

Soy progre, y me importa un rabo los toros. Me parece mal que se torturen animales, pero por motivos etnologicos, mietras siga habiendo espectadores creo que no se debe prohibir el rito.

Goya pint� los desastres de la guerra y a nadie se le ocurrir�a habla de la guerra como un arte. No jodamos, el toreo es un rito / actividad / espectaculo, etc. y motivo art�stico, pero arte no.

Por cierto me interesa muc�simo que alguien me pasara datos sobre dinero p�blico gastado en toros. Yo cre�a que era algo solo financiado con dinero privado..

Posted 15 Dic 2003 at 8:51 pm ¶
Ga�af�n wrote:

– Como q me da pereza ponerme a justificar de manera documentada q el toreo es arte. Lo dir� de manera muy simple y sin ninguna mala hostia: es arte en tanto crea belleza, una belleza verdadera, ef�mera e inmersa en riesgo.

Hay unos c�nones de belleza en tauromaquia y unas formas y una profundidad, y una plasticidad tanto en la forma de embestir del toro (desde el hocico, la cabeza y el cuello, hasta los cuartos traseros y el rabo), como en la forma de colocar el cuerpo el torero (pies, piernas, cintura, brazos y mu�ecas, pecho y ment�n) hasta en la simple posici�n y ca�da de la tela de capotes y muletas.

– Lo de ponerse en lugar del toro me hace gracia, porque es labor del aficionado a los toros medir al torero respecto al toro q tiene delante. Por lo tanto, en la plaza se analiza primero q nada al toro, sus cualidades y caracter�sticas, y a partir de ah� se mide la capacidad del torero. Y ni que decir q ese an�lisis es de necesidad imperiosa para el torero, an�lisis que debe estar abierto a cualquier cambio y reacci�n en el comportamiento del toro, porque hay toros q «aprenden» demasiado r�pido y acaban «sabiendo lat�n».

Q se le castiga, q se le inflinge un da�o, por supuesto. Pero q se le tortura, pues no y mil veces no. Nadie, nadie de los q pueblan el ruedo de una plaza de toros durante una corrida est�n ah� para torturar a un toro. Q si lo quisieran torturar, por ejemplo, lo sacar�an metido en una jaula, y all� metido le har�an las mil perrer�as, y no es as�. Al concepto tortura va unido el de burla, y del toro bravo nadie se burla.

Conocer al toro es capital y lo dif�cil en esto. Compadecerse es lo f�cil, y yo tb me puedo llegar a compadecer, por supuesto. Pero mal q bien lo intento conocer. Sus comportamientos y reacciones y su psicolog�a: sobre todo en la plaza, por supuesto, q el campo queda un poco lejos, pero de eso se lee.

El toro bravo se lleva criando y seleccionando desde hace 200 a�os para morir en la plaza demostrando su bravura en la plaza.

hasta luego

Posted 15 Dic 2003 at 10:25 pm ¶
Ga�af�n wrote:

– Como q me da pereza ponerme a justificar de manera documentada q el toreo es arte. Lo dir� de manera muy simple y sin ninguna mala hostia: es arte en tanto crea belleza, una belleza verdadera, ef�mera e inmersa en riesgo.

Hay unos c�nones de belleza en tauromaquia y unas formas y una profundidad, y una plasticidad tanto en la forma de embestir del toro (desde el hocico, la cabeza y el cuello, hasta los cuartos traseros y el rabo), como en la forma de colocar el cuerpo el torero (pies, piernas, cintura, brazos y mu�ecas, pecho y ment�n) hasta en la simple posici�n y ca�da de la tela de capotes y muletas.

– Lo de ponerse en lugar del toro me hace gracia, porque es labor del aficionado a los toros medir al torero respecto al toro q tiene delante. Por lo tanto, en la plaza se analiza primero q nada al toro, sus cualidades y caracter�sticas, y a partir de ah� se mide la capacidad del torero. Y ni que decir q ese an�lisis es de necesidad imperiosa para el torero, an�lisis que debe estar abierto a cualquier cambio y reacci�n en el comportamiento del toro, porque hay toros q «aprenden» demasiado r�pido y acaban «sabiendo lat�n».

Q se le castiga, q se le inflinge un da�o, por supuesto. Pero q se le tortura, pues no y mil veces no. Nadie, nadie de los q pueblan el ruedo de una plaza de toros durante una corrida est�n ah� para torturar a un toro. Q si lo quisieran torturar, por ejemplo, lo sacar�an metido en una jaula, y all� metido le har�an las mil perrer�as, y no es as�. Al concepto tortura va unido el de burla, y del toro bravo nadie se burla.

Conocer al toro es capital y lo dif�cil en esto. Compadecerse es lo f�cil, y yo tb me puedo llegar a compadecer, por supuesto. Pero mal q bien lo intento conocer. Sus comportamientos y reacciones y su psicolog�a: sobre todo en la plaza, por supuesto, q el campo queda un poco lejos, pero de eso se lee.

El toro bravo se lleva criando y seleccionando desde hace 200 a�os para morir en la plaza demostrando su bravura en la plaza.

hasta luego

Posted 15 Dic 2003 at 10:25 pm ¶
Yagoda wrote:

Mmmhmm…ya, lo ensartan de hierros, lo enga�an, lo empujan, lo desangran hasta debilitarlo y entonces, el valeroso torero le clava una espada hasta la empu�adura.
Pero cuidao, todo con mucho respeto.
Y lo anterior sera cuando las cosas salen bien, claro. Porque cuando salen mal el animal queda ahi agonizando, con la espada a medio clavar, escupiendo sangre a cada jadeo, arrodillado en la arena. Y el «maestro», entonces, con mucho tiento, no vaya a dar un cabezazo la bestia, le clava otro pincho en las cervicales, una vez, y otra, y otra, hasta que por fin acierta en la medula y el animal cae.
Dios, y todavia me buscan belleza en semejante animalada. Pues identificarse con el toro sera lo «facil», pero en este caso no quiero profundizar mas, me basta con lo facil.
Para El Nino de Nou barris, me consta que los ayuntamientos de Oviedo y Gij�n subvencionan las corridas, directa e indirectamente. Dan dinero para que se celebren, pagan por poner el logotipo municipal en los carteles, ceden la banda municipal y costean el mantenimiento de las plazas todo el ano.
El ano pasado los colectivos antitaurinos andaban dudando si embarcarse en una ley de iniciativa ciudadana, para prohibir las subvenciones. Parece ser que bastaria con eso para erradicar las corridas de toros de Asturias.

Posted 15 Dic 2003 at 11:04 pm ¶
alfredo_MG wrote:

Ga�af�n, creo que tienes ciertos problemas en cuanto al significado del concepto ‘arte’. En cualquier caso, cuando una m�s que discutible creaci�n de belleza atenta de esa manera contra un ser vivo y contra el propio hombre, rebajado a la figura de maltratador, nunca puede justificarse para sostener ese espect�culo degradante. Despu�s hablas de que el aficionado se pone en el lugar del toro al analizarlo, pero eso no tiene nada que ver con la empat�a, sino con la supervisi�n de las caracter�sticas de la v�ctima. En cuanto a eso de que la tortura no existe si no va unida al concepto de burla…menudo infantilismo. �Qu� hay de la humillaci�n, el dolor y la muerte? En cuanto a la selecci�n del toro tampoco justifica nada, volvemos a lo mismo, entonces tambi�n aceptamos que se seleccionen perros para despedazarse entre ellos. Los argumentos en favor de los toros, insisto con lo expuesto en mi env�o anterior, s�lo se justifican con peregrinas razones viscerales que no aguantan el m�s m�nimo debate racional, ya que proceden de una serie de carencias en la socializaci�n.

Posted 15 Dic 2003 at 11:27 pm ¶
Ga�af�n wrote:

se llega a un punto en el q no se puede discutir, yagoda, q es lo q suele pasar en cuando se trata de taurinos-antitaurinos; porque la soluci�n ser�a la conversi�n de uno o de otro, q podr�a darse el caso. Comprender comprendo tu postura, porque es la generalizada en las filas de los antitaurinos, y como cuando se refer�a el forista alfredo mg al «intento de ponerse en la piel de otro ser vivo», lo mismo digo yo a la hora de ponerse en la piel del aficionado, algo q al antitaurino le resulta practicamente imposible, y digo pr�cticamente porque se de casos q han acabado aficion�ndose.

Una anecdota q me pas�: novillada en la plaza de toros de valencia, �ramos cuatro gatos: como mucho 3 o 4 mil personas all� dentro q hab�an pagado su entrada, y afuera, a la salida, una concentraci�n de antitaurinos q no ser�an m�s de 50, ejerciendo libremente y de manera gratu�ta su derecho a manifestarse con su pancarta y todo. Pues bien, saliamos de la plaza y las provocaciones t�picas y tal, un abuelete se medio cabreo y les pego zarpazo a la pancarta y otros tres q como �l saliamos de la plaza, se la quitamos y se la devolvimos. Y punto. Qu� pasar�a si fuese al rev�s, pues no lo s�, francamente.

Posted 15 Dic 2003 at 11:33 pm ¶
Ga�af�n wrote:

Alfredo, hablas de «v�ctima», no ser� q lo enrevesdos ser�is vosotros.

Perm�teme el infantilismo, por favor, o sino gracias por el sin�nimo de humillaci�n, q tambi�n voy a negar: al toro no se le tortura, porque en el castigo por el q pasa durante su lidia, nadie se burla, nadie se mofa de condici�n de toro, nadie lo humilla. O sino, prueba a ir a una plaza de toros y observa la actitud del p�blico y de la gente del ruedo ante ese castigo q tu llamas tortura.

Posted 16 Dic 2003 at 12:07 am ¶
alfredo_MG wrote:

Ga�af�n, para que exista tortura no es necesario que haya burla. En cuanto a lo de pedir que los antitaurinos se pongan en la piel del aficionado, te recuerdo que al aficionado no se le clavan banderillas, ni hay un obeso picador que los desangra, ni un tipo disfrazado que los mata. Es normal, por otra parte, que los aficionados no perciban la evidente humillaci�n, puesto que tan apercibimiento ha de provenir de una an�lisis racional, no visceral, que hiciera frente a los ya comentados y recomentados problemas de socializaci�n que todos, y digo todos, sufrimos en un �mbito como el de la tauromaquia. Creo que ese debate entre taurinos y antitaurinos es sencillamente imposible no por que haya dos extremos irreconciliables, sino por algo muy simple ya expuesto anteriormente: no hay ni un s�lo argumento a favor de la tauromaquia que pueda sostenerse en un debate racional m�s all� de tres segundos. El �nico argumento es la creaci�n de belleza (belleza que ven s�lo unos cuantos). Pero la belleza, si somos medianamente civilizados, ha de estar sujeta a la moral, y no creo que sea moral la destrucci�n paulatina, atroz y p�blica de un animal para que haya un espect�culo.

Posted 16 Dic 2003 at 12:36 am ¶
Strepto wrote:

Estoy contigo Ga�afon, adeu.

Posted 16 Dic 2003 at 2:26 am ¶
Octubre Rojo wrote:

Es cierto, Augusto al enterarse de la singularidad en lo universal de los pueblos c�ntabros fue corriendo a ver aquella gran civilizaci�n emergente, de la misma talla que la vascona, quiz�s.

Respecto a toros y toreros, tomo un trozo de un art�culo totalmente politicamente incorrecto que reza asi:

«La otra ley es de 1878 y se contemplan en ella penas de prisi�n y multas a los inductores de un menor de 16 a�os a abandonar el domicilio de los padres, tutores, curadores o maestros «para seguir a acr�batas, gimnastas, fun�mbulos, buzos, domadores de fieras, toreros, directores de circo u otras profesiones an�logas.»

http://www.diariodejerez.com/pg031212/opinion/opinion_opinion349625.htm

Y recuerdo que en los anfiteatros romanos nadie pod�a salir de la arena, cuyas paredes ademas, no solo carec�an de burladeros sino que estaban plagadas de estacas punzantes.

Ser� el primero en ir a una corrida de toros el dia que no haya burladeros, ni «ayudantes» y las barreras tengan como tres metros de alto, en plan pista de hockey. Entonces si me iba a divertir.
A ver los cien metros lisos con traje de luces.

Posted 16 Dic 2003 at 4:36 am ¶
Seth wrote:

Creaci�n de belleza, arte, esfuerzo intelectual… no s�, pero me da la impresi�n de que los toreros no son precisamente personas de una inteligencia y calidad humana muy elevada; viene a ser algo as� como que el catedr�tico de arte de una universidad sea un analfabeto funcional, o un fil�sofo sin la EGB, etc. O sea, que partiendo de la base de que la persona encargada de crear tanta belleza e intelectualidad podr�a ser Jesul�n de Ubrique, pues que quieres que te diga, me choca un tanto.

Y viendo que algunos contertulios son aut�nticos expertos en la materia, me gustar�a que me explicasen, si se supone que la tauromaquia es la lucha de igual a igual de hombre contra toro, por qu� es imposible que gane el toro, aun en el caso de que mate al torero. Porque yo s� que veo ese elemento de burla que Ga�afon dec�a que necesitaba la tortura para ser tal; cuando el toro lucha lo hace, como es l�gico, con la esperanza de vencer a su atacante, librarse de �l y poder seguir viviendo tranquilo. La burla m�s cruel consiste en que todos menos �l saben que su esfuerzo va a ser en vano, y que si fuera capaz de entender a qu� se enfrenta en realidad probablemente no reaccionar�a como lo hace. Pero es un animal y obra seg�n sus instintos, que solo son mecanismos perfeccionados por la naturaleza en la b�squeda de la supervivencia, y entre los cuales no se cuenta el �instinto para saber que un humano te est� tomando el pelo y que si no te mata �l te matar� otro pero morir mueres seguro�. S� que a veces se indulta a los toros, pero tambi�n s� que el motivo del indulto no guarda relaci�n directa ni necesaria con que venza, y que adem�s son situaciones excepcionales.

Por �ltimo, un inciso �desde la solidaridad- a los asturianos: No os extra�e que os endosen la tauromaquia como parte de vuestra identidad cultural cuando estamos hablando de un pa�s que en el extranjero es conocido como el del flamenco y los toros (pero eso s�, un pa�s serio, claro), y cuyo concepto del respeto a las minor�as consiste en re�rse de los que hablan lenguas que no sean el castellano.

Adeu!

Posted 16 Dic 2003 at 10:10 am ¶
marc wrote:

Esta pagina de humor es nuy buena. Me hacen especialmente gracia estos personajes (ficticios imagino, o habeis encontrado algun friki de verdad as�??) que defienden el toreo.

En toda europa alucinan con que se mantenga ese ritual primitivo del toreo, pero la verdad es que cuando vienen de turismo a la costa brava, son los unicos que van a las corridas y mantienen el negocio, a parte de cuatro nostalgicos espa�olazos, confidentes y picoletos retirados.

Esos guiris aficionados a los toros no son precisamente hemingways. Mas bien se entusiasman de ver confirmados todos los t�picos sobre la supuesta salvaje i viril «espa�olidad» de los ind�genas, como si por aqui a la gente normal le interesase lo mas minimo el toreo. Eso les debe confirmar que los centroeuropeos o nordicos son mejores o algo as�.

otra cosa que me ha echo gracia es un tipo que ponia como ejempls de grandes inventos de la humanidad las autopistas. Hombre, as� en catalunya debemos ser muy europeos, tanto pagar peajes!

quins collons!

Posted 16 Dic 2003 at 11:34 am ¶
Ga�af�n wrote:

Lucha de igual a igual, muy complicado: un toro y un hombre no son iguales, evidentemente. El toro, como el torero, est� invadido por el miedo, al q se sobreponen de la mejor manera q pueden. Eso es quiz� lo �nico q los asemeja: el miedo

No voy a entrar otra vez en el callej�n sin salida del castigo porque ya entrar�is vosotros sacando otra vez las v�sceras.

El toro es un animal con unas cualidades, llamemosle casta, llamemosle bravura, q se cr�a de manera pac�fica en el campo, de manera natural, rodeado de iguales y sin ver vaca. Si es un poco gay, intentar� seducir a otro toro. Aunque tb puede q el ganadero q lo cr�a confi� en �l, y tent�ndolo en el campo cuando tiene 2 a�os lo deje para semental. Pero eso son los menos. M�s de diez por ganader�a ya es un barbaridad.

El resto, eso: bien comidos, pasan 4 a�os en el campo. Si las hechuras no acompa�an se lidiar�n con 3 a�os como novillos. Pero el fin �ltimo, su destino es la plaza. El gran reto de su vida, del q probablemente no saldr�n con vida, pero morir�n con dignidad.

Bueno, unos con m�s dignidad y otros con menos: todo seg�n la bravura q despierten en el ruedo, seg�n su reacci�n a ese temor a lo desconocido, seg�n su reacci�n al castigo de la puya, no es lo mismo rehuir q arrancarse desde 30 metros al caballo de picador, esto �ltimo es una gozada, uno de los momento de mayor belleza y de mayor exaltaci�n de la Bravura del Toro; seg�n su codicia al embestir, llegar�n a la muerte con dignidad.

Me explico, y luego ya lanz�is lanzas contra m�: dignidad porque el toro bravo nace y se cr�a para morir en la plaza; son 15 minutos en los q hace el esfuerzo m�s grande de su vida (quiz� el �nico, exceptuando alguna q otra pela en el campo con otro toro) justificando su existencia y sancando a relucir su mayor cualidad: la bravura.

Indigno ser�a, y en esto me pongo en la condici�n de toro, morir en un matadero mediante una descarga electrica, si posibilidad ninguna de justificar su vida.

El indulto es un premio q llega despu�s a aquel toro cuya bravura roza la perfecci�n.

—-

Las personas de buen coraz�n habl�is de una reserva natural para poder preservar la especie evitando q se le «torture», pero a vuestro desconocimiento del toro de lidia, pregunt�: qu� hacemos con la riqueza de encastes q pueblan la caba�a de bravo: saltillo, albaserrada, parlad�, santa coloma, miura, pabloromeros; qu� hacemos con la sangre de casta navarra, la sangre vazque�a, etc?

C�mo preservamos toda esa riqueza natural, manteniendo la pureza en la sangre, evitando la consanguineidad si ya los ganaderos se las ven y se las desean para manterla dentro de sus propias ganader�as; y lo m�s importante: c�mo preservamos la caracter�stica principal, aparte de los fenotipos y caracter�sticas f�sicas de cada encaste, la bravura del toro bravo?? C�mo sino es mediante la tienta y la lidia del animal en la plaza??

Lo peor de los q se ponen de parte del toro, y ojo, q yo lo estoy, y el primero, conste!! Lo peor es el total desconocimiento.

Y despu�s hay todav�a gente q nos llama freacks y no sale del argumento absurdo de la «espa�olidad» casposa, cuando al lado de la costa brava est� la plaza de Olot, m�s q centenaria y un poco m�s arriba en la Catalunya del Nord (ya francia) est� Ceret, quiz� donde la fiesta brava se celebre en su mayor pureza, aunque para escandalizamiento de muchos (nacionalistas catalanes, franceses y espa�oles en el mismo saco est� vez), la plaza est� adornada de senyeres y el himne «Els Segadors» suena en cada paseillo.

Igual que en el Pa�s Vasco, donde a Ibarretxe no se le caen los anillos por ir a los toros durante la semana grande de Bilbao, y por ello a nadie se le ocurre llamarle espa�olista, faltar�a: lo malo ser�a q tanto cid campeador q pulula por espa�a librando a los espa�oles de rojos y separatistas se enterase de ello, y entonces a lo mejor a los aficionados a los toros nos pon�a de vuelta y media, y nos excomulgaban como ya alg�n papa de roma hizo alguna vez hace unos cuantos a�os.

Posted 16 Dic 2003 at 12:59 pm ¶
Garganta Profunda wrote:

Querido Ga�afon:

Con perlitas como las que has soltado…poco se puede decir!

«dignidad porque el toro bravo nace y se cr�a para morir en la plaza; son 15 minutos en los q hace el esfuerzo m�s grande de su vida (quiz� el �nico, exceptuando alguna q otra pela en el campo con otro toro) justificando su existencia y sancando a relucir su mayor cualidad: la bravura.»

Conclusion 1: Uno toro nace para morir sin motivo. Bueno, hay uno. Demostrar tu bravura. Ole tus huevos!

«Indigno ser�a, y en esto me pongo en la condici�n de toro, morir en un matadero mediante una descarga electrica, si posibilidad ninguna de justificar su vida.»

Para justificar tu existencia (no entiendo porque hay que justificarla), que mejor que morir en una plaza de toros. Paquirri se justifico lo suyo, vamos!

«El indulto es un premio q llega despu�s a aquel toro cuya bravura roza la perfeccion»

Ya lo sabes chaval, si no rozas la perfeccion…cuajjj!

El mundo del toreo me parece de un «Testosteronazo» que no veas!

Posted 16 Dic 2003 at 1:17 pm ¶
marc wrote:

se perfectamente que esto de los toros es anterior a la espa�olidad y todos estos topicos, y que en la Catalunya nord y en la Camarga hay alguna gente que le gusta eso. Lo que digo que la unica gente que va a las corridas son los turistas para recrearse en el t�pico. La gente normal no tiene ningun inter�s en esa tradici�n taurina, ni en la Costa Brava ni en Olot va nadie a estas plazas que no sea un turista despistado.

si te quieres enga�ar, tu mismo.

Posted 16 Dic 2003 at 1:53 pm ¶
Ga�af�n wrote:

Garganta, mejor q te dediques a defender al escarabajo verde.

– Justificar su existencia, s�: demostrando su bravura. La raz�n de ser del toro es la bravura, aunque tu mente obtusa no de m�s de s�, y se cr�a para que en 15 minutos la demuestre, se justifique en cuanto a toro q es.

– Justificar tu existencia. Quiz� no has o�do hablar del existencialismo, ni te has le�do «la ca�da» de camus, o es q quiz� t� todav�a no hayas ca�do o quiz� opines q el cerdo s�lo se justifica despu�s de muerto seg�n la calidad de los jamones q d�. O quiz� esperes ser reconocido despu�s de muerto, aunque quiz� t�, como yo y como casi todos, pasaremos inadvertidos y en 100 a�os nadie guardar� recuerdo alguno y no como el Toro, al q siendo animal (animal no racional quiero decir) se le da la oportunidad en vida de demostrar su condici�n y cualidad en cuanto a toro. Porque tu ficha del registro civil, la m�a y la de millones de personas, llegar� un momento en q por motivos de espacio molestar�n y poco costar� deshacerse ellas. La del toro no. O a ver de q «individuo» de una especie animal determinada de hace 150 a�os me puedes dar rese�a porque haya pasado a «la historia», de un toro s� y de varios toros tambi�n: estar�n en la historia de la tauromaquia. Aunque a t� no te interese mucho conocerla, q eso es lo �nico q puedo entender.

Y ya s� q quiz� de copito de nieve tb tengan noticias nuestros cong�neres dentro de 150 a�os despu�s de haber pasado en un zool�gico m�s de 30 a�os.

Y con lo de pasar a la historia no quieras confundirme o atribuirme delirios de grandeza ni nada por el estilo: «hay q volar bajo el r�dar», q ya lo s�, q yo de bravo cero patatero.

– Paquirri por supuesto q se justific� en cuanto a persona y torero.

– Tan indigno es para un toro bravo morir electrocutado, como para una mujer sufrir una mutilaci�n genital, como q para un elefante lo maten a escopetazos para arrancarle sus colmillos, como q por haberte cargada a 100 personas en un atentado, a t� te siente en la silla el�ctrica. Si por burradas no ser�.

– El indulto. Teniendo en cuenta q en las ganader�as se cr�a y selecciona el toro para preservar, en teor�a, el mayor grado de bravura, por supuesto q si la bravura del toro en cuesti�n roza la perfecci�n ser� indultado. Es muy obvio, tanto como q hay un le�n q encabeza la manada q tiene un har�n de leonas para �l.

Posted 16 Dic 2003 at 2:07 pm ¶
Ga�af�n wrote:

garganta ah� tienes con marc otra perlita de las q te gustan tanto: «La gente normal no tiene ningun inter�s en esa tradici�n taurina». Est�n los normales, los guiris y turistas y los aficionados a los toros, no?; una duda: a qui�n indultamos entonces???

Posted 16 Dic 2003 at 2:30 pm ¶
alfredo_MG wrote:

Ga�af�n (y dem�s taurinos), con tus argumentos justificas que se cr�en y seleccionen animales para la tortura. El conocimiento del toro que pregonas como necesario para la comprensi�n de la tauromaquia pertenece al mismo �mbito que el conocimiento que debe tener de un perro un criador de perros de pelea. En cuanto a esa supuesta riqueza de razas o tipos de toros de lidia, no olvides el fin al que est� destinada la selecci�n: crear un animal ‘de f�brica’ para destruirlo poco a poco en p�blico. Si esas ‘sangres’ se pierden quien gana es la civilizaci�n. Despu�s de tantos mensajes en este debate todav�a no ha aparecido ni un s�lo argumento sostenible por la parte taurina que responda a algo m�s que ‘me gustan porque s�, ea».

Posted 16 Dic 2003 at 3:41 pm ¶
Beria wrote:

A mi los toros me gustan por algo mas que porque si, la verdad. Reconozco que me parece una practica de una emocion y una riqueza plastica extraordinarias, y admito (hasta ahi podiamos llegar) que a algunos (muchos) les provoque repugnancia, pero sigo con el mismo argumento: peor tratados estan los animales en una granja de explotancion ganadera o avicola.
Ademas, es una practica que ha derivado en una cultura propia y en la elaboracion de un lenguaje propio poetico, refinado, respetuoso ante todo con el animal.
Si vuestro argumento es la tortura espero que seais todos un bien avenido grupo de anacoretas que recoge la fruta directamente de los arboles y que ha inventado una tecnica para comer animales sin causarles danyo. En tal caso, enhorabuena, de lo contrario… ser vegetariano es vuestra unica solucion (y ni por esas)

Posted 16 Dic 2003 at 5:27 pm ¶
Seth wrote:

Bueno, pero yo sigo queriendo saber por qu� si los toros son cultura los toreros responden tan fielmente al estereotipo de analfabeto cerril, y por qu� cuando un toro mata al torero no se le deja vivir, ya que ha ganado.

Aprovecho la ocasi�n para hacer una pregunta a los taur�macos: El toro que le arranc� media cara de un morrazo a Jes�s Franco Carde�o se llamaba Hocicudo? Es que quiero tener clara la respuesta para cuando incluyan la pregunta en el Trivial. Y por cierto, qu� ha sido de �l (del torero, no del toro, que ya imagino su destino)?

Gr�cies.

Posted 16 Dic 2003 at 6:07 pm ¶
alfredo_MG wrote:

Beria, que los animales de una granja est�n peor tratados no significa que al toro no se le hunda medio metro de acero en el cuerpo despu�s de haberle destrozado durante la faena. En cuanto a la creaci�n de un lenguaje �propio po�tico? y una cultura, tambi�n la tuvo en su momento la lucha de gladiadores. Tampoco s� que tiene que ver el vegetarianismo… es lo de siempre, cuando surge el asunto de la tauromaquia, los aficionados tiran por los Cerros de �beda cual gr�ciles astifinos. Si se dice que los toros son una salvajada, el aficionado contesta �y el hambre en el mundo? �y la f�sica cu�ntica? �y qu� pasa con la situaci�n de la filatelia local?

Posted 16 Dic 2003 at 6:40 pm ¶
Octubre Rojo wrote:

Correcci�n para el individuo marc, aqui el tipo, servidor, afirma que las autopistas o calzadas romanas son unos de los grandes inventos de la humanidad, especialmente cuando duran milenios.

Posted 16 Dic 2003 at 7:35 pm ¶
Yagoda wrote:

Yagoda
Segun tu razonamiento, las corridas de toros estan justificadas porque despues de todo, ya maltratamos a los animales de mil maneras en las granjas intentando sacarles provecho economico.
Siguiendo el mismo razonamiento, estaria justificada CUALQUIER ATROCIDAD contra un animal indefenso. Oye, �Por que no vamos a embolar al toro, asaetarlo, derribarlo y castrarlo vivo (como hacen en algunos pueblos de Soria, Extremadura y Valencia)? Tambien estas son tradiciones antiquisimas y hermosas, a su manera.
Todo esta justificado porque vaya, de todas maneras el mundo esta basado en el sufrimiento (hasta los vegetarianos tienen que matar lechugas para poder vivir). Todo esta justificado, de modo que el malnacido aquel, el tipo que serro las patas de un perro vivo en Barcelona hace un ano, tampoco hizo nada malo. A lo mejor tambien el tiene un vocabulario propio. A lo mejor le serro las patas de un modo artistico y creo belleza haciendolo…

Posted 16 Dic 2003 at 9:39 pm ¶
Yagoda wrote:

Hala, que fallo, evidentemente me estaba dirigiendo a Beria, no a Yagoda.
Seth
Gracias por el apoyo moral. Un dia os contare la historia de Gabino de Lorenzo, actual alcalde que implanto en Oviedo, a golpe de talonario, las cofradias de Semana Santa con cornetines y todo.

Pasemos a analizar la enjundiosa aportacion de «Octubre Rojo», que se nos ofendio porque algunos en el Blog osaron dudar de la superioridad tecnologica de los latinos:

«Es cierto, Augusto al enterarse de la singularidad en lo universal de los pueblos c�ntabros fue corriendo a ver aquella gran civilizaci�n emergente, de la misma talla que la vascona, quiz�s.»

Antes de nada, Augusto vino a ver a los cantabros Y A LOS ASTURES, como deja bien claro Floro. No esta de mas documentarse un poco, antes de escribir.
Segundo, Augusto no vino aqui por curiosidad intelectual, sino mas bien para someter el pais a sangre y fuego, exterminar la poblacion masculina en edad militar, vender al resto como esclavos, y crucificar como escarmiento a los rebeldes mas notorios (sigue leyendo a Orosio y Floro, veras que no invento nada nadita).
Tercero, la civilizacion de los pueblos que sometio Roma nos resulta practicamente desconocida, precisamente porque los sometieron a sangre y fuego, exterminaron y esclavizaron, etc etc. No conocemos sus epopeyas, religion, filosofia ni su organizacion politica y social. Unicamente sabemos de ellos lo que los romanos se dignaron contarnos, es decir que eran unos barbaros inferiores y maliiisimos. Supongo que tu, Octubre Rojo, te lo crees a pies juntillas, pero yo preferiria tener la version de los «barbaros» antes de emitir un juicio.
Tambien sabemos que eran inferiores militarmente a los romanos, y al fin y al cabo eso es lo que cuenta, digo yo.
Es lo malo de la civilizacion, que tiene efectos colaterales.
Me llama la atencion que, en cuanto salen a relucir ciertos temas, le falta tiempo al racismo espanol para manifestar lo que piensa realmente de los pueblos y culturas «inferiores».
No se por que sera, pero cuando matas a un tipo eres un asesino, pero cuando exterminas una nacion entera eres un heroe civilizador…
Por cierto, a santo de que vino esa alusion a los vascones? Estas obsesionado, o algo? Eso no es bueno…

Posted 16 Dic 2003 at 9:58 pm ¶
Ga�af�n wrote:

Por m�s discutir, nunca llegaremos a ninguna parte…

Una frase muy sentenciosa de hoy mismo de luis eduardo aute en una tertulia cibern�tica en el xat de elmundo.es, frase muy clara y definidora de lo q es est� foro.

Dice aute: «siempre he cre�do que el mundo se divide en dos bloques: taurinos y no taurinos».

Y ha a�adido despu�s: «Mi pasi�n por el mundo del toro permanece».

La m�a tambi�n.

Posted 16 Dic 2003 at 10:32 pm ¶
123 (p)robando wrote:

<a href=»http/www.lapaginadefinitiva.com»

Posted 16 Dic 2003 at 10:55 pm ¶
Octubre Rojo wrote:

Pues claro que Augusto no fue a darles besitos o a ver una digamos, civilizaci�n, de la que no hay documentos escritos. Fue a hacer lo que Julio con los Galos, como bien �l mismo relata en sus Comentarios de las Guerras de las Galias. Fue a eliminar problemas. Es decir, fue a eliminar el pillaje de las hordas barbaras, que no consisti�n mas que en pueblos prehist�ricos que ve�an con buenos ojos que un pueblo rico se les pusiera al lado. Ese frotar de manos inicial se convirti� en crucificados en las vias romanas. Roma luchaba cuando ve�a amenaza, no riqueza, si no, Hispania se habr�a conquistado mucho antes.

En realidad no tengo nada contra los vascones, me parecen igual de primitivos que astures, cantabros, galos, germanos y bretones, aunque menos que los iberos, los cuales tuvieron la decencia de devolver legiones capturadas, vivas.
(Para escarnio de Roma, eso si).

Respecto a la superioridad tecnol�gica de Roma, Roma aun nos sigue superando en muchos aspectos. Aun no he visto nada que supere en belleza a lo que ahora llamamos ruinas. Ni siquiera la basilica de San Pedro, (fea de cojones para mi gusto) edificada con criterios de nuevo rico, podr�a superar en belleza a un peque�o templo construido con hormig�n y recubierto de polvo de marmol de Carteia, aqu� al lado. Es mas, cualquier escultor romano de provincia se habr�a sonreido al ver cualquier obra del renacimiento, y no digo solo escult�rica.

Y para no perderme del hilo de este blog burbujeante, a las clases cultivadas de Roma les repugnaban los juegos del Coliseo, pues la barbarie siempre ha repugnado a aquel con dos dedos de frente, igual que hoy dia.

Posted 17 Dic 2003 at 5:38 am ¶
Octubre Rojo wrote:

Se me olvid�:

http://www.ucm.es/info/archiepi/aevh/singulares/edicto_de_augusto.html

Posted 17 Dic 2003 at 5:39 am ¶
Yagoda wrote:

Octubre Rojo:
Lo de «eliminar problemas» (o sea, gente) te ha quedado de lo mas aseptico. Na, como los «danos colaterales», vamos. Que buscando, buscando, siempre podemos encontrar algun eufemismo, porque decir «matanzas y genocidio» asi en frio, queda como muy…como muy vulgar, No?
Julio Cesar busco y busco, y acabo encontrando un agravio intolerable que justificaba la invasion de las Galias…y de paso le permitia reforzar su propio prestigio en Roma. El cursus honorum y el sistema de triunfos para los generales, favorecio durante muchos siglos las aventuras militares de los legados en las provincias. Asi, las que organizo Galba y sus (infames) matanzas en Lusitania, o el mismo Cesar en tierras galaicas, antes de ir a la Galia.
Augusto queria dar tierras al inmenso ejercito que tenia ocioso, al acabar la guerra civil. Queria ademas reforzar su propio prestigio en Roma (Ves? Lo mismo otra vez) imitando la aventura de su tio Julio en las Galias: el tambien se haria famoso sometiendo otra nacion barbara en el confin occidental del imperio.

Pero desde luego todo lo anterior son minucias, bagatelas. Lo importante eran los INMENSOS yacimientos de oro que se hallaban en territorio de los astures. El oro del valle del Navia inundo el imperio, altero la estructura economica del mundo conocido y sostuvo al Imperio Romano durante tres siglos.
Es decir, las Guerras Cantabricas fueron el clasico episodio de expansion imperialista, amenizado por las clasicas y hediondas justificaciones de los imperialistas («los cantabros tienen armas de destruccion masiva y son una amenaza para la paz»).
Y por cierto, fiarse de La Guerra de las Galias, escrito por el instigador de la guerra, es como fiarse de Ricardo de la Cierva para conocer los crimenes falangistas (es un ejemplo muy gastado pero no se me ocurre otro).
En cuanto a las, digamos, civilizaciones que el Imperio, digamos, «resolvio» en su marcha gloriosa, no sabemos nada de ellas. No dejaron testimonios escritos porque los romanos acabaron con los textos, los escribas, el idioma y el alfabeto de todos los pueblos del occidente europeo salvo vascos, cornicos y galeses. Si te fias de los testimonios escritos que han llegado hasta nosotros, evidentemente los cartagineses seran para ti otra «tribu prehistorica» mas, digo yo.
Si te crees que los celtiberos y los galos eran unos barbaros prehistoricos, es que no has leido nada de la arqueologia de los ultimos cincuenta anos. Los celtiberos estaban muy cerca de desarrollar un estado cuando llego Roma: y no fueron los romanos quienes les ensenaron a escribir. Los galos tambien estaban al borde de superar la organizacion tribal, y sus oradores eran famosos en Roma.
Comparemos los cantabros y los judios.
– Si nos fiasemos de las fuentes romanas (las «Historias» de Tacito), los judios eran un oscuro pueblo del Mediterraneo oriental, con unas supersticiones absurdas y un templo vacio en medio de la capital. Tacito nos cuenta que la conquista de Jerusalen fue complicada porque los judios eran muy supersticiosos y pensaban que su dios habitaba en la ciudad.
– Si nos fiamos de las fuentes PROPIAS, los judios eran un pueblo que tenia mil anos de historia a cuestas al enfrentarse con Roma, idioma y alfabeto propio, una compleja organizacion social y una riquisima cultura, que incluia mitos, poemas liricos, disquisiciones religiosas y filosoficas, musica, un sistema juridico muy desarrollado y una floreciente historiografia.
En el caso de los cantabros, los astures, los galos y los britanos simplemente nos falta una mitad de la ecuacion. Los romanos nos los pintan muy parecidos a los judios: supersticiosos, estupidos, malvados y empenados neciamente en resistir el avance glorioso del imperio. La conquista de Jerusalen, por ejemplo, puede compararse con la de Mona, un centro religioso de los britanos; o con el asedio del Mons Vindius de los cantabros.
Pero si pudiesemos preguntarles a ellos, estarian de acuerdo? De verdad eran tan burros? De verdad Roma aporto TANTO, a unos pueblos que ya habian abandonado la prehistoria, tenian complejos sistemas de creencias y estaban bien comunicados entre si?
La religion druidica, muy posiblemente fuera tan amplia y compleja como el Antiguo Testamento, que desde luego no conocemos gracias a Roma (sino mas bien a pesar de). Esos romanos civilizadores y superiores, que nos pintas incansables, flanqueando las carreteras de bandidos crucificados (como Cristo, por ejemplo), esos romanos se pasaron los dos primeros siglos de nuestra era entregados a la laboriosa tarea de exterminar, desarraigar, proscribir y perseguir el druidismo en la Galia y en Britania. No porque los druidas «saqueasen a sus vecinos», que no pasa de ser una patetica excusa. Sino porque representaban una civilizacion tan compleja como la romana, y rival suya entre los celtas.
Me rio yo de los salvadores del mundo y de los civilizadores.
Por cierto, el Renacimiento fue una horterada…y el arte romano otra, una copia barata de Grecia. Los romanos eran buenos ingenieros y buenos militares (esto ultimo no me parece motivo de orgullo): punto.

Posted 17 Dic 2003 at 7:06 am ¶
Garganta Profunda wrote:

Unas aclaraciones y PROMETO no volver a este tema de la Tauromaquia…

Cuando Ga�afon me dice que me dedique a «defender el Escarabajo Verde»…pues bueno! Prefiero defender un animal que decir que lo defiendo contemplando como se lo cepillan. Hay gustos pa to.

Cuando dices cosas como…
«La raz�n de ser del toro es la bravura, aunque tu mente obtusa no de m�s de s�,»
Como te pasas, mira que llamarme obtuso…

«y se cr�a para que en 15 minutos la demuestre, se justifique en cuanto a toro q es.»

Un toro existe para que lo toreen. �Porque? Porque lo decimos nosotros, los seres humanos, primates evolucionados. Primer animal do mondo que mata a otro animal sin tener una excusa alimenticia, territorial…vamos, sin tener excusa! Punto. La madre naturaleza creo al toro entre los bovidos porque penso…mira! como dentro de millones de a�os unos primates lo criaran para torturarlo, la razon de la existencia del toro no sera otro que montar un espectaculo! Al toro no le han preguntado todavia si le apetece o no. Por cierto, un tigre de bengala (uno de los mejores depredadores del reino animal) es bravo de cojones, �porque no se torea tambien? Claro, es mas facil echar mano de un bovido.

«Justificar tu existencia. Quiz� no has o�do hablar del existencialismo…»

Co�o, filosofia y tauromaquia, lo que me faltaba. O sea, que el fin ultimo de cualquier especie animal es PASAR a la POSTERIDAD, y si es en forma de pregunta del Trivial (El toro que mato a Manolete), mejor que mejor… Sigo sin conocer cual es el sentido de la vida, querido Ga�afon, pero estoy seguro de que para el toro, la fiesta nacional no lo es. Y como ser humano, me importa un pimiento la posteridad. Quiero pasar inadvertido. Te deseo suerte cuando te repases la historia de la Tauromaquia para ver QUE toro y en QUE plaza murio. Menudo trabajazo!

«Tan indigno es para un toro bravo morir electrocutado, como para una mujer sufrir una mutilaci�n genital, como q para un elefante lo maten a escopetazos para arrancarle sus colmillos…»

Traca final…o sea electrocutado no, pero darle ca�a durante 15 minutos clavandole «puyitas» si! Pero es que en esta ultima puede demostrar su bravura! Acabaramos! La proxima vez que mi abuela mate a un conejo para la paella dire que se lo cargue en una pista de atletismo para que asi el conejo demuestre su cualidad innata: la rapidez!

No quiero seguir mas con la polemica taurina. No hace falta que me repliques. Un saludo y sigue disfrutando.

Posted 17 Dic 2003 at 9:35 am ¶
Beria wrote:

Yo solo digo que la coherencia es la madre de la ciencia. No es de recibo poner el grito en el cielo por un tema cuando a traves de nuestros habitos alimenticios fomentamos practicas igual de crueles que las que rechazamos y criticamos con fiereza. Simplemente.
De todas maneras yo respeto vuestra opinion, y auque soy aficionado a la fiesta no os preocupeis porque al paso que vamos no le queda mucha vida.
En ultimo lugar, no creo que la comparacion con el bastardo aquel que serro las patas de los pobres perros sea muy acertada,Yagoda, hay que distinguir entre un acto esporadico de salvajismo y una practica centenaria que mueve una industria descomunal y cuyo fin no es la violencia gratuita ni el sufrimiento per se, sino la busqueda de lo que sus practicantes creen son nuevos espacios artisticos, llenos de belleza. Otra cosa es que a ti no te lo aprezcan. Y, ojo, los taurinos no somos desequilibrados mentales ni psicopatas torturadores, simplemente, al menos en mi caso, vemos en la muerte del toro el fin maximo de su existencia, es decir, morir luchando en un ruedo y no electrocutado cobardemente en un matadero

Posted 17 Dic 2003 at 12:06 pm ¶
agarkala wrote:

Para el chico ese que cree que es celta porque Asturias es verde y hay vacas, estoy asombrado de esta frase:

«y acabo encontrando un agravio intolerable que justificaba la invasion de las Galias…»

Es la primera vez que oigo que a un mill�n de helvecios se les llama «agravio intolerable».

«Los celtiberos estaban muy cerca de desarrollar un estado cuando llego Roma»

Cuando vayas a hablar de la romanizaci�n peninsular, por favor, no omitas a los cartagineses. � Ese era el estado celt�bero a punto de formarse ?

En fin, cualquier historiador serio te dar�a capones de leer ese resumen maniqueo e infumable de la ocupaci�n de Hispania y la guerra de las Galias, que adem�s parece que ocurri� ayer, por lo visto. No te preocupes, a�n puedes volver al monte, y desromanizarte, tienes toda la vida por delante.

Ah, una �ltima cosa. NO ERES CELTA, NADIE ES YA CELTA. La cultura celta ya NO EXISTE como tal. No eres m�s celta de lo que pueda ser yo ibero. A ver si nos vamos enterando, t� eres asturiano y por tanto y de momento, espa�ol, y vives en el siglo XXI. Tu tierra, tus costumbres, tus ritos y tu forma de vida son el resultado de diversas influencias de culturas pasadas, de las cuales la c�ltica, por antigua, es ya �nfima.

Asturias no es celta por el verdor, las vacas o la sidra, eso es un condicionante geogr�fico y climatol�gico. Basar tu nacionalismo en «lo celta» y en los agravios del romano invasor es rid�culo. Busca otra cosa. De verdad.

No te lo tomes a mal, pero creo que con esto del nacionalismo se nos va a todos la olla demasiado.

Alex 😛

Posted 17 Dic 2003 at 1:18 pm ¶
Octubre Rojo wrote:

�Gracias papi!

Posted 17 Dic 2003 at 6:37 pm ¶
Promotor wrote:

Visitad este blog, pseudoliteratura �ntima o lieteratura no se sabe:

http://www.revistadebolsa.com/blogs/index.php/blog/1735

Posted 17 Dic 2003 at 9:31 pm ¶
Yagoda wrote:

Agarkala, estamos en paz, a ti te asombran mis frases y a mi las tuyas:
«NO ERES CELTA, NADIE ES YA CELTA. La cultura celta ya NO EXISTE como tal.»
En cambio la cultura latina sigue viva y florece, como en tiempos de Romulo y Servio Tulio, supongo. Habra que explicarles eso de que «nadie es celta» a los cientos de miles de personas que hablan lenguas celtas, leen periodicos y libros escritos en esos idiomas, o se entretienen con emisoras de radio y television en gales, irlandes, escoces o breton.
La gente de este blog se proclama «latina» porque se consideran herederos de la cultura latina, Virgilio, Ovidio y todo eso. Pues bien, los celtas de hoy en dia tienen su propia herencia cultural, su propia tradicion literaria en lengua celta. La literatura irlandesa y galesa, desde sus raices medievales, es amplia, variada y de muy buena calidad. Por tanto la cultura celta, «como tal», sigue viva y con buena salud.
No pretendo basar mi nacionalismo en las matanzas de Augusto: «de verdad», como dices tu.
Sin embargo, aunque odio el victimismo, es dificil no sentirse agraviado ante el desprecio, el ilimitado desden, que existe en Espana hacia las culturas no mediterraneas. Basta leer la despectiva mencion de Octubre Rojo a esa, «digamos, civilizacion». Tu, Agarkala, directamente le niegas la existencia a lo celta: el desprecio supremo.
Dices que el verdor y la sidra de Asturias son el resultado de condicionantes geograficos, como si me descubrieses la polvora. Ya lo se, pero es que la cultura de un pueblo no es mas que su respuesta a esos condicionantes. Asturias no pertenece a la Cuenca Mediterranea, sino al Arco Atlantico: este hecho nos ha condicionado a lo largo de la historia para acercarnos mas a los pueblos del Arco Atlantico, o «celtas», por abreviar.
Volvamos a las razas de ganado: en Asturias se cria el cerdo blanco, o «cerdo celta» (lo siento pero es que se llama asi), distinto del cerdo ib�rico del sur peninsular. El caballo es el poni asturcon, de paso portante, geneticamente emparentado con los ponis del sur de Inglaterra. Los romanos admiraban este caballo, por cierto: ya era parte del paisaje astur hace al menos dos mil anos.
Las vacas, «casinas» y «asturianas de los valles», tienen sus parientes desperdigados por los Vosgos y los Alpes.
Sigo? El trigo, la escanda, es una tipica variedad nortena, lo trajeron aqui los emigrantes del interior del continente, en epocas remotas.
Las variedades de ganado son un ejemplo como hay muchos, del modo en que el ecosistema influye en la cultura y la historia de un pueblo. Nuestros antepasados tuvieron que traer las vacas, los caballos y el trigo del norte, y los explotaron de una manera similar a los celtas del continente: la cultura resultante, naturalmente, es muy similar a la de sus hermanas nortenas.
Por no hablar de la proximidad geografica, las migraciones, pirateria, comercio, contrabando, pesca y caza de ballena, peregrinaciones, etc. etc. que nos han mantenido unidos, a las gentes del Arco Atlantico, desde el megalitismo hasta el festival de Lorient.
Los asturianos, los gallegos y los montaneses somos conscientes de todo esto, estas cosas aqui no escandalizan a nadie, pero cuando sacas el tema en un foro de ambito espanol, te encuentras reacciones que varian desde el «Separatistas de mierda» hasta «sois unos trogloditas, gracias que Augusto os civilizo un poco».

Posted 17 Dic 2003 at 9:57 pm ¶
Yagoda wrote:

En cuanto a Julio Cesar:
No es cuestion de ponerse ahora a dilucidar si la migracion de los helvecios era una amenaza o si unicamente querian atravesar territorio romano sin meterse con nadie. Lo que esta claro es que, en el peor de los casos, defenderse de los helvecios no le daba derecho a Cesar para internarse en las Galias, luchar aqui, masacrar alla, hasta BELGICA, CRUZAR EL CANAL Y ENTRAR EN BRITANIA: se me hace un poco cuesta arriba justificarlo todo, todo.
Hay una diferencia entre la causa de una guerra y el pretexto de una guerra (esto ya lo sabia Tucidides, por cierto): y creerse «La Guerra de las Galias» acriticamente, como si Julio Cesar fuese un testigo desapasionado, y no un megalomano enfermo de ambicion, viene a ser tan razonable como creerse FOXNEWS para comprender las causas de la segunda Guerra del Golfo.
Si quereis podeis admirar a Julio Cesar, a Napoleon, a Germanico Cesar, a Hernan Cortes, a Carlomagno, a Augusto y a Filipo de Macedonia, todos esos «graandes hombres» que con su teson y su fuerza permitieron que la CIVILIZACION avanzase a paso de gigante…por encima de montanas de cadaveres.
A mi me cae mejor Demostenes, que quereis que os diga.
Las Guerras Cantabricas fueron un desastre, no solo para las personas asesinadas o esclavizadas: fueron un desastre porque borraron de la historia una cultura que ya no conoceremos jamas. Y eso nos hace mas pobres a todos, aunque hayan pasado dos mil anos.
No me hagais caso, solo soy un separatista pirao…

Posted 17 Dic 2003 at 10:08 pm ¶
Octubre Rojo wrote:

Pues a Julio dos mil a�os despues aun siguen llevandole flores al lugar donde ardi� su pira. Alguna diferencia habr�a…

Tambien hay civilizaciones extraterrestres que nos visitan, lo que ocurre es que los estados totalitarios ocultan y destruyen las pruebas

Posted 18 Dic 2003 at 12:50 am ¶
Yagoda wrote:

«Tambien hay civilizaciones extraterrestres que nos visitan, lo que ocurre es que los estados totalitarios ocultan y destruyen las pruebas»
Y esto a que viene???

Posted 18 Dic 2003 at 9:36 am ¶
agarkala wrote:

«A mi me cae mejor Demostenes, que quereis que os diga.»

No me extra�a un pelo. Aunque si el imperialismo que ardorosamente combat�a Dem�stenes hubiera sido en vez de Macedonio, por ejemplo ateniense, igual no hubiera sido tan anti-imperialista, � no crees ?

Mira, si te fijas, yo no me he reivindicado como latino, ni nada por el estilo. M�s que nada porque si Servio Tulio levantara la cabeza, dudo que me reconociera como tal. Las culturas tienen su tempo hist�rico, y m�s all� de �l, una vez pierden su hegemon�a o su espacio cultural, �nicamente queda su legado. Legado que se va atenuando con el tiempo. As�, cuanto m�s remota, m�s se aten�a.

Yo, aunque hable una lengua derivada del lat�n, y por ende del indoeuropeo, jam�s me autoproclamar� indoeuropeo, latino o hispanorromano, porque es una barbaridad hist�rica. No dudo que se hablen lenguas de origen celta, pero est�s un poco extraviado si piensas que las lenguas «celtas» que habl�is los norte�os (no mediterr�neos) son las mismas que hablaban los antiguos habitantes de esas tierras.

Porque dime, hermoso, � est�s en condiciones de afirmar rotundamente que de verdad t� desciendes de estirpe c�ltica ? Igual te sorprender�as. Yo s�lo puedo confirmar que desciendo de mi abuelo, y por tanto, como mucho, de estirpe turolense. Repito, la cultura celta se fue con los calderos de bronce, las espadas de lengua de carpa, el culto al roble y los sacrificios humanos. Otra cosa es que haya un grupo de gente que por hablar una lengua «celta» (no me metas al gallego o al bable en ese saco, seamos serios, eh?), por ponerse pulseritas de plata y por ser ecologistas se crean «celtas». En otra �poca se les llamaba «hippies». Me resulta especialmente lamentable que tus s�mbolos culturales celtas se reduzcan al ep�teto que recibe una variedad de cerdo, a una especie de trigo, y a un tipo de caballo. De nuevo, condicionantes climatol�gicos que nada tienen que ver con la cultura. Posiblemente la variedad escanda de trigo se cultivar� por su mejor adaptabilidad al clima.

En cuanto a la supuesta similitud de Asturias con sus «hermanos celtas norte�os», perm�teme que me descojone. As� que los irlandeses, brit�nicos o normandos y vosotros, primos hermanos, � no ? � por ? De nuevo, la vegetaci�n y las vaquitas y cerditos son el bagaje cultural que compart�s, puesto que no comulgar� con tu rueda de molino ling��stica. El ga�lico y el bable se parecen como un huevo a una casta�a.

Por �ltimo, perm�teme que te diga que tan est�pido pensar que «La Guerra de Las Galias» es imparcial como pretender que Julio C�sar no era m�s que «un megalomano enfermo de ambicion». Dices:

«Las Guerras Cantabricas fueron un desastre, no solo para las personas asesinadas o esclavizadas: fueron un desastre porque borraron de la historia una cultura que ya no conoceremos jamas. Y eso nos hace mas pobres a todos, aunque hayan pasado dos mil anos.»

� Y ? Mira, a m� me dan much�sima m�s pena los irak�es muertos en esta �ltima guerra que los astures o c�ntabros asesinados en las guerras cant�bricas. Por otra parte, no pareces muy imparcial, ni muy acr�tico, asumiendo la versi�n de una gente «oprimida» de la que ni siquiera tienes un documento escrito. Cu�ntas culturas habr�n desaparecido a lo largo de la Historia !! � hay que reconstruirlas todas ? � Bajo qu� criterio ? Y t� vas y te contradices. Reivindicas esa cultura para afirmar ahora que jam�s la conoceremos. � En qu� quedamos, existe o no existe ?

Te dar� un consejo m�s, gratis. Si alguna vez estudias historia, pero en serio, has de aprender que la forma m�s f�cil de manipularla es hacer esos paralelismos directos que haces. Son falsos y son muy peligrosos, aparte de que nadie con un m�nimo de formaci�n se los puede creer. Sabes tan bien como yo, que Espa�a es un pa�s mediterr�neo, como Francia, como Turqu�a, como Italia, como Argelia. Y cuando habland e Espa�a como Occidental, yo s� s� de qu� hablan, aunque viva m�s al Oriente que nadie en esta pen�nsula. La geograf�a es lo que es. No enga�a. Y t�, eres el resultado de la mezcla y sucesi�n de culturas grecorromana, judeo-cristiana, visig�tico-germana, musulmana, hispana, con influencias anglosajonas, francesas, de culturas precolombinas, etc etc …� Sigo ? Pero en fin, t� sigue so�ando tus sue�os astur-c�lticos imperiales.

Saludos,

Alex

Posted 18 Dic 2003 at 10:21 am ¶
Yagoda wrote:

No hay contradiccion, Agarkala.
La cultura de los pueblos prerromanos de la Cornisa se perdio: el idioma, la literatura y todas las demas manifestaciones de la cultura. Hay alguna pervivencia, como las casas circulares (todavia quedaba alguna habitada hace treinta anos), la cria de asturcones y alguna palabra.
No puedo reivindicar la cultura de aquella gente ni �reconstruirla�: yo defiendo nuestra cultura HOY. Porque aqu� todavia hay gente y todavia tenemos una cultura, digo yo. A pesar de la ruptura que supuso la romanizacion, seguimos teniendo muchas cosas en comun con los demas pueblos del Arco Atlantico. Esos vinculos vienen, en primer lugar, de los condicionantes ecologicos y geograficos y en segundo, de unas relaciones historicas que no se interrumpieron nunca, ni antes de Roma, ni durante ni despues.
La �hermandad� entre los pueblos mediterraneos es ya un topico, Agarkala, a pesar de que el catalan y el arabe se parecen �como un huevo a una casta�a�. Por que te escandaliza que yo defienda el parentesco entre los vecinos del Arco?
La mayoria de los motivos de la literatura gaelica medieval siguen vivos en nuestras leyendas, por ejemplo. Los cerdos, caballos y vacas que tan ridiculos te parecen, son elementos tangibles e incontestables de una cultura, porque cada raza de ganado esta asociada al pueblo que la cria. El parentesco de las razas de ganado implica una relacion analoga entre las personas que viven de ellos. Y las culturas basadas en la leche se pareceran entre si, igual que las culturas basadas en el olivo se parecen. Condicionantes ecologicos? Por supuesto que lo son: yo no creo en un Volkgeist intangible y eterno. Pero el resultado es el mismo: somos pueblos hermanos.
Cuando se dice que �Espana es un pais mediterraneo� las connotaciones van mas alla de la simple geografia, Agarkala, lo sabes tan bien como yo. Igualmente podria decirse que �Espana es un pais atlantico�, o �Un pais al extremo del Golfo de Vizcaya�. Pero no…
Julio Cesar era un megalomano, claramente. No fue el quien se echo a llorar una vez, porque aun no habia igualado a Alejandro? No fue el quien dijo que preferia ser el jefe de una aldea barbara, antes que el segundo hombre mas poderoso de Roma? Ese hombre vivia para mandar.
En cuanto a los irakies y los cantabros, me gustaria decir que lloro lagrimas amargas por unos y por otros, pero la verdad es que me traen al pairo tanto unos como otros. No puedo sentir dolor por gente que no conozco, y seria un hipocrita si dijese lo contrario. Pero considero que el imperialismo es el mismo en todas las epocas, que solo cambia la tecnologia. Que una infamia sigue siendolo, aun despues de dos mil anos. Y que las guerras cantabricas son un ejemplo tan valido como la invasion de Irak. No puedo ponerme en la piel de aquella gente, Agarkala, pero se que muchos eligieron el suicidio como alternativa a la esclavitud: pueden deducirse muchas cosas de ah�.
Es verdad que se han perdido miles de culturas originales, pero el caso es que Irlanda, que evito la romanizacion, y Escandinavia, que no la vio ni de lejos, utilizaron sus culturas autoctonas para crear un renacimiento cultural extraordinario a lo largo de la Edad Media, mientras nosotros masticabamos una y otra y otra vez los viejos ejemplos de las literaturas clasicas. Muy triste.
Ah, y por favor, ahorrame el sermon modelo Jon Juaristi sobre mis ensonaciones nacionalistas. Gracias…

Posted 18 Dic 2003 at 11:17 am ¶
agarkala wrote:

Porque aqu� todavia hay gente y todavia tenemos una cultura, digo yo.

Pues claro que la tienes, pero no es celta.

«A pesar de la ruptura que supuso la romanizacion, seguimos teniendo muchas cosas en comun con los demas pueblos del Arco Atlantico»

Si, la romanizaci�n es una de las cosas que ten�is en com�n. Y el marco geogr�fico similar.

Sobre la guerra de Irak, tenemos informaci�n sobrada para determinar si es o no una infamia, porque somos testigos vivos y hay acceso a muchas fuentes. Sobre las valoraciones de lo que ocurri� hace m�s de 2000 a�os, no podemos m�s que especular. Y por eso es peligroso extrapolar directamente, porque se cae f�cilmente en mentiras hist�ricas. Evidentemente me preocupan m�s los irak�es, pues ocurre ahora. Y es curioso que no te importen los astures, cuando hace dos o tres posts estabas preocupad�simo por su amarga suerte.

Mira, sobre el suicidio, te lees un poco sobre la instituci�n de la devotio hisp�nica y entender�s muchas cosas.

PD: No considero que el trigo o los animales sean rid�culos en s�. Considero rid�culo que los utilices como elmenetos culturales para fundamentar tu nacionalismo. No confundas los t�rminos.

Alex 😛

Posted 18 Dic 2003 at 11:38 am ¶
agarkala wrote:

«Es verdad que se han perdido miles de culturas originales, pero el caso es que Irlanda, que evito la romanizacion, y Escandinavia, que no la vio ni de lejos, utilizaron sus culturas autoctonas para crear un renacimiento cultural extraordinario a lo largo de la Edad Media, mientras nosotros masticabamos una y otra y otra vez los viejos ejemplos de las literaturas clasicas. Muy triste.»

Genial, obra maestra, plas, plas, plas. No hab�a o�do una idiotez como esa en mucho tiempo. mientras los sure�os mediterr�neos, latinos, bajitos y morenos mastic�bamos el triste legado de los tristes grecorromanos, Escandinavia e Irlanda crec�an esplendorosas y constru�an un mundo nuevo de tolerancia y de renacimiento cultural, apreciable en su plenitud en los raids vikingos, y en la impresionante y conocida en todos los libros de historia civilizaci�n irlandesa, que tanta gloria cultural ha legado al mundo y tanto ha influ�do en el desarrollo de la humanidad.

Chaval, t� lo que eres es un RACISTA !

Alex 😛

Posted 18 Dic 2003 at 11:42 am ¶
Yagoda wrote:

�Si, la romanizaci�n es una de las cosas que ten�is en com�n. Y el marco geogr�fico similar.�
Y la alimentacion, el calendario agricola, el folklore oral, las fiestas y ritos populares, etc, etc, etc…

�es curioso que no te importen los astures, cuando hace dos o tres posts estabas preocupad�simo por su amarga
suerte�
Ah, si? Donde?
Como mucho pude decir que desprecio a Augusto como un genocida y un imperialista, que es algo muy distinto.

�te lees un poco sobre la instituci�n de la devotio hisp�nica y entender�s muchas cosas�
devo…que? jo, me estas abriendo un mundo nuevo… En serio, la devotio se referia a guerreros consagrados a un jefe, mientras que en las Guerras cantabricas se dieron casos de familias enteras que se suicidaban en el cautiverio.

�Considero rid�culo que los utilices como elmentos culturales�
��?? Por que? No son parte de la cultura?

�mientras los sure�os mediterr�neos, latinos, bajitos y morenos mastic�bamos el triste legado de los tristes grecorromanos, Escandinavia e Irlanda crec�an esplendorosas y constru�an un mundo nuevo de tolerancia y de renacimiento cultural, apreciable en su plenitud en los raids vikingos, y en la impresionante y conocida en todos los libros de historia civilizaci�n irlandesa, que tanta gloria cultural ha legado al mundo y tanto ha influ�do en el desarrollo de la humanidad.
Chaval, t� lo que eres es un RACISTA !�
XDDD En serio, se me escaparon un par de carcajadas leyendo esta parrafada.
Vamos a ver, la cultura irlandesa entre los siglos VII-XII era la mas avanzada del Occidente Cristiano, de hecho el renacimiento carolingio se nutrio de monjes irlandeses. No te voy a explicar ahora lo que son los ciclos mitologicos irlandeses o el libro de Kells: te compras una enciclopedia o te vas a visitar el Trinity College. En cuanto a los vikingos, crearon un imperio que abarcaba media Europa (tu y Octubre Rojo sois admiradores de los imperios, no?), fundaron Rusia y descubrieron America. Su rica literatura, aparte de las recopilaciones de mitos, abarca cosas como los escaldas y las sagas. Si quieres saber lo buenas que son, leetelas y asombrate. En mi opinion, lo mejor de la Edad Media europea.
Mientras tanto, los mediterraneos de la Peninsula Iberica, acomplejados por su estatura y su tez (seg�n veo) no hicieron nada decente en todo ese tiempo, practicamente, salvo sobrevivir y recordar tiempos mejores. Y repito, Isidoro de Sevilla y Beato de Liebana no hicieron mas que repetir y masticar las mismas antiguallas, siglo tras siglo…
La del racismo si que fue buena. En serio… No solo porque no he escrito NADA que me califique de racista, ni remotamente, sino porque, si hay alguien racista aqu�, sera el que desprecia sistematicamente las culturas ajenas (esos barbaros del norte). Y si, Agarkala, la Irlanda medieval fue una explosion cultural milagrosa, y hoy sigue siendo admirada en todo el mundo. Menos en la ensimismada Espana, claro. Na, leamonos otro capitulo de las �Etimologias� y tan felices.

Posted 18 Dic 2003 at 12:52 pm ¶
agarkala wrote:

Al menos, Yagoda, cuando te refieras a mis posts, ten la decendia de no manipularlos, y referir frases completas, pues leer este trozo:

>

tras hablar de los astures puede llevar a la sibilina confusi�n de que encuentre rid�culos a �stos, y no a los argumentos agr�cola-ganaderos que usas para hablar de «cultura celta», que es lo verdaderamente rid�culo.

No leas tantas sagas n�rdicas, que te va a pasar lo del Quijote. As� pues, lo m�s destacable de la Edad Media en los s VII-XII, a tu entender son la cultura irlandesa y el fant�stico Imperio vikingo, «fundador» de Rusia y «descubridor» de Am�rica.

Veo que aparte de menospreciar el legado romano (por supuesto, hombre, si al fin y al cabo, no eran para tanto) obvias �intencionalmente? culturas como el reino Franco, y sobre todo al Califato de C�rdoba, que culturalmente le da veinte patadas al resto de Europa en esa misma �poca.

Nada, nada, mi ario y norte�o muchachote, sigue en tu mundo eslavo de superioridad cultural reivindic�ndote como…�normando? �vikingo? �celta ?

Alex 😛

Posted 18 Dic 2003 at 1:24 pm ¶
Yagoda wrote:

«tras hablar de los astures puede llevar a la sibilina confusi�n de que encuentre rid�culos a �stos, y no a los argumentos agr�cola-ganaderos que usas para hablar de «cultura celta», que es lo verdaderamente rid�culo.»
???? Esto te juro que no lo entiendo. No pretendia confundir a nadie, tus pajas mentales son eso, pajas mentales. La agricultura y la ganaderia son parte fundamental de la cultura material, por tanto seguire hablando (y leyendo) de ello tanto como me parezca, si tu lo ves ridiculo, problema tuyo.

No ignore en ningun momento al califato de Cordoba, si te fijas me cuide mucho de escribir que Irlanda era el pais mas avanzado del Occidente CRISTIANO. Te recuerdo que los arabes escribian…en arabe. Los francos, habria que ver si estaban por encima de la Irlanda contemporanea. Y habria que ver cuanto quedaria del renacimiento carolingio sin los monjes irlandeses que emigraron a la corte de Carlomagno.
Leere tantas sagas como me salga de las narices, por cierto. Tu te las pierdes, pero claro, cuando uno se pone a leer lo que no debe, corre el peligro de que se le caigan los dogmas. «Diablos, esos barbaros no eran tan barbaros… Como es posible, si no fueron los romanos a civilizarlos?». El etnocentrismo, Agarkala, se cura viajando.

«Veo que aparte de menospreciar el legado romano (por supuesto, hombre, si al fin y al cabo, no eran para tanto)»
Donde estaban los romanos en los siglos VII-XII, por favor? Y que hicieron sus descendientes con ese glorioso legado? Hay alguna figura comparable a Tito Livio en los reinos cristianos medievales de la Peninsula? …Ah, ya.

«Nada, nada, mi ario y norte�o muchachote, sigue en tu mundo eslavo de superioridad cultural reivindic�ndote como…�normando? �vikingo? �celta ?»
Gracias por los animos, oh Ciceron del S.XXI, tu cuidate de permitir que nadie cuestione tus certezas: las sagas son rebuznos barbaros, Rusia la fundo Tiberio Cesar y la cultura asturiana es tan mediterranea como la maltesa. Y eres TU el que esta obsesionado con la superioridad cultural, por cierto.

Posted 18 Dic 2003 at 2:44 pm ¶
agarkala wrote:

Te doy por imposible. T� ganas, peque�o galo. Vuelve a la aldea a resistir, ahora y siempre, al invasor romano-espa�ol.

Ave !

PD Los romanos, en los siglos VII-XII estaban en Bizancio. Figura,m por ejemplo, Anna Commeno.De nada.
Mientras, recordar� la figura inmortal de ese gran astur-celta que era…emmm…estoooo…el caso es que lo ten�a en la punta de la lengua. Repasar� mi enciclopedia de sab�dur�a astur, que mira que no acordarme…

Alex 😛

Posted 18 Dic 2003 at 5:20 pm ¶
Xicu_Xabel wrote:

Alex, el h�roe que no recuerdas se llama Gaus�n, un jefe de los �stures de la zona de lo que hoy se denomina Asturias, y este pueblo organiz� un ataque de tal manera que si los �brigaeginos� no los hubieran traicionado hubieran ganado con creces esa contienda y ser�a un golpe bastante fuerte para la Roma en aquel tiempo.

En cuanto a la cultura, en la Espa�as no s�lo existe la cultura mediterranea, tambi�n est� la Atl�ntica (entre otras muchas, pues es dif�cil clasificar todas las culturas), que hoy prime el elemento mediterr�neo como Espa�ol se lo debemos al reguim�n franquista, que estaba obsesionado por mostrarse diferente de Europa y saco los elementos que hoy definen en el extranjero al pueblo Espa�ol, y que no se indetifican en �l todas las culturas, pero esto pasa en la mayor�a de los pa�ses del mundo.

En cuanto a vikingos, en Asturias en la zona de Goz�n se habla de �posibles� asentamientos de grupos de vikingos.

Y por cierto �por qu� ves a los reinos cristianos inferiores en cultura que a los reinos isl�micos?, est� claro que el arte isl�mico era m�s rico en materiales, pero �has visto algo del arte prerrom�nico en Asturias?, igual te sorprendes.

Por cierto Alex, �eres racista?, es por la frase de arriba, en la que mezclas churros con meninas, para empezar la altura NO es condicionante de raza, si quieres te doy un ejemplo f�cil (compara la estatura inglesa por generaciones y la espa�ola, ver�s que la juventud espa�ola es m�s alta que la inglesa, de ser por raza los ingleses siempre ser�an m�s altos, consulta en el instituto de ergonom�a pues tienen estudios muy buenos). Y lo del color del pelo, me parece una tochada de gran calibre, pues rubios los hay entre los bereberes o los guanches cuando los invadimos eran rubios (que no n�rdicos), y sin embargo en las islas las zonas m�s celtas (Gales, Escocia, Irlanda), abundan los morenos, existe una tradici�n en Gales para explicar esto y es que los de la armada invencible se quedaron en la zona tras el hundimiento.

Y la tradici�n oral de Asturias es igual que la del resto del arco Atlantico, hecha un vistazo a las leyendas y compara.

Ta llueu

Posted 20 Dic 2003 at 4:14 pm ¶
maritza wrote:

es impresionante ver como pueden abusar de los animales. saber que los hacen sufrir antes de entrar a ruedo. y les pregunto a los toreros � si son tan valientes???? quiero verlos frente a un toro de lidia en su mero apogeo, sin que lo torturen como lo hacen y sin que lo obliguen a luchar, el torero no podria ni pararse frente a el; ya que como todo un ser humano no podr�a enfretarse a tan grande animal. si el toro lo decide en pococs minutos lo mata. no apoyo nada que sea en contra del bienestra de los animales

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